Can Recursive Flip-Trees Be Defined More Elegantly?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter dobry_den
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Trees
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the challenge of defining "flip-trees" recursively, as posed in Douglas Hofstadter's book "Gödel, Escher, Bach." Participants explore the transformation of recursive algebraic definitions of trees into those of their mirrored counterparts, focusing on elegance and simplicity in the definitions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a proposed solution for defining a flip-tree but expresses concern over its lack of elegance compared to the original definition.
  • Another participant suggests a potential connection between the problem and the properties of odd and even numbers, likening it to trigonometric functions in Taylor series.
  • A participant describes the construction of a tree based on a recursive function and notes specific values for G(n) that relate to the tree structure.
  • Concerns are raised about the complexity of the proposed recurrence relation and the difficulty in verifying its correctness, particularly at higher levels of the tree.
  • One participant inquires about any recent discoveries or more elegant forms that may have emerged in the last few years regarding the definition of flip-trees.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on a more elegant definition for flip-trees. Multiple competing views and uncertainties about the proposed solutions and their elegance remain evident throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants express limitations in their proposed solutions, including the need for multiple initial values in their recurrence relations and the challenges in verifying the correctness of these definitions at higher levels of the tree.

dobry_den
Messages
113
Reaction score
0
In chapter five of Douglas Hofstadter's book Goedel, Escher, Bach, the author poses a question about recursively-defined trees:
[...]suppose you flip Diagram G around as if in a mirror, and label the nodes of the new tree so they increase from left to right. Can you find a recursive algebraic definition for this "flip-tree"?

I've been trying to solve it today, and the only solution I came up with is:
G(n) = (n+1) - G(G(n-1)+1) for n>4
G(O) = 0, G(1) = 1, G(2) = 2, G(3) = 3, G(4) = 3 (hope i remember it well),
which is apparently not as elegant as the original definition. Has anyone of you come up with a better solution? Or is there any general method (procedure) how to transform recursive algebraic definition of trees into recursive algebraic definitions of "flip-trees"?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Doesnt it have something to do with odd and even numbers, a bit like the trigonometric functions of the tayor series?
 
3trQN said:
Doesnt it have something to do with odd and even numbers, a bit like the trigonometric functions of the tayor series?

I'm not sure about that... I'll try to state the whole problem:

Having a recursive algebraic definition of a function F(n), one can construct a tree by placing n-nodes above F(n)-nodes:

Code:
                         (4)        (5)
                          |          |
                          ----(2)-----           (3)
                               |                  |
                               --------(1)---------

For this particular tree, these equations hold:
G(2)=1
G(3)=1
G(4)=2
G(5)=2

The tree in the book is described by the equation:
G(n) = n - G(G(n-1)) for n>0
G(0) = 0

And the problem is following: imagine you flip the tree around as if in a mirror and relabel all the nodes so they increase from left to right. What would be the recursive algebraic definition for this mirrored tree?

The solution I came up with is mentioned in my previous post... But apparently it lacks the original elegance - in order to be suitable for the tree, it has to be given five initial values. The original "unmirrored" tree used only one predefined value.
 
I came to the same result this day (actually I gave even more initial values, but my recurrence relation was the same). But I have the same two problems with it: The solution is really unhandy and everything but elegant... Ant at second it still is only an assumption. Unfortunately I have absolutely no clue how it could be shown that this recurrence relation fits to the tree (and it is not even easy to falsify: Calculating high G-flip(n) is okay but having a look at the 2000th level of this weird tree is not that easy...).

So now my question: Were there any new discoveries in the past few years? Is there any elegant form now or does anyone of you have an idea?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
Replies
3
Views
2K
Replies
8
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
10
Views
4K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 86 ·
3
Replies
86
Views
24K
Replies
2
Views
2K