Can Riemann Sums Calculate Area Enclosed by Function?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the use of Riemann sums to calculate the area enclosed by a function and the x-axis over a specified interval, particularly when the function is not defined at one endpoint of the interval. Participants explore the implications of isolated points and discontinuities on Riemann integrability.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that Riemann sums can be used to calculate the area even if the function is not defined at the endpoint b, provided the function is bounded on the interval [a, b).
  • Others argue that isolated points do not affect the value of the integral, suggesting that even a countably infinite number of isolated points cannot change the area under the curve.
  • A participant clarifies that the Riemann integral is defined as the limit of integrals over intervals [a, b-epsilon] as epsilon approaches zero.
  • Some participants challenge the validity of Riemann integrability for functions with discontinuities, citing the example of a function that is 0 for irrational numbers and 1 for rational numbers, which they claim is discontinuous everywhere.
  • Another participant states that any bounded function with a set of discontinuities of measure 0 is Riemann integrable, while noting that the aforementioned function has a set of discontinuities with measure 1.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the conditions under which Riemann sums can be applied, particularly regarding the impact of discontinuities and isolated points. There is no consensus on the integrability of the example function provided, indicating ongoing disagreement.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific properties of Riemann and Lebesgue integrals, highlighting limitations related to discontinuities and the measure of sets. The discussion reveals complexities in defining integrability based on the nature of discontinuities.

sutupidmath
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can we use rienmann sum to calculate the area that is enclosed between a part of a function and the Ox axes in the interval [a,b) if the function is not defined at b ?
 
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Yes. An isolated point cannot change the value of the area under a function.

For that matter neither can a large number or even a countably infinite number of isolated points change the value of an integral. (assuming of course that's there's no nasties like the Dirac Delta "function" involved).
 
Riemann sum. Not Reinmann. Adn to expand on Uart's post. The Riemann integral is the limit as epsilon tends to zero of the integrals [a,b-epsilon], when it exists.
 
can we use rienmann sum to calculate the area that is enclosed between a part of a function and the Ox axes in the interval [a,b) if the function is not defined at b ?

Yes you can, if the function is bounded on [a, b). And it is equal to the integral of the function [a,b].

For that matter neither can a large number or even a countably infinite number of isolated points change the value of an integral.

This is not true for the Reimann integral, which is why the Reimann integral is utterly worthless, in favor of Lebesgue.

For example, the function:

f(x) = {0 if x is irrational, 1 if x is rational}

has only countably many discontinuities, but it not reimann integrable:frown:
 
Crosson said:
For example, the function:

f(x) = {0 if x is irrational, 1 if x is rational}

has only countably many discontinuities, but it not reimann integrable:frown:

No, I'm pretty sure that function is discontinuous everywhere.
 
Even if the singularities were only at the rationals (and they aren't, as moo points out) they fail uart's restriciton to isolated singularities.
 
Any bounded function, as long as the set of discontinuities has measure 0, is Riemann integrable. Any countable set has measure 0. As both Moo of Doom and matt grime said, the function you give is discontinuous everywhere. Its set of discontinuities has measure 1.
 

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