Can Angular Momentum Create Forward Movement?

In summary, trust cannot produce a torque and two torques cannot produce a thrust. It is also not possible to convert angular momentum into forward momentum. External forces, such as thrusters on a spacecraft, can change both forward and angular momentum at the same time. There have been attempts to verify these effects, but they are not related to Eric Laithwaite's misunderstandings of gyroscopes. Linear and angular momentum are conserved separately, and energy can be transferred between linear and angular kinetic energy. Atomic physics is important for ion thrusters and nuclear physics is relevant for power sources and potential nuclear reactors in space. Slingshotting around a planet can lead to acceleration, but the gain in speed is usually small due to the circular orbits of
  • #1
Xilus
27
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OK so a trust can produce a torque,
But two torques can't produce a thrust?

There is no way to convert angular momentum into forward momentum.
 
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  • #2
Xilus said:
There is no way to convert angular momentum into forward momentum.
Correct.
It is symmetric: There is also no way to convert forward momentum to angular momentum.

External forces (like thrusters on a spacecraft ) can change both forward and angular momentum at the same time.
 
  • #3
Xilus said:
OK so a trust can produce a torque,
But two torques can't produce a thrust?
You can have a net force, without a net torque.
You can have a net torque, without a net force.

Xilus said:
There is no way to convert angular momentum into forward momentum.
You need a net force, to change linear momentum.
You need a net torque, to change angular momentum.
 
  • #4
Google Eric Laithwaite's name and see what happened to a perfectly capable Engineer when he got involved in this topic. The Establishment treated him as a Pariah, despite his being a giant in the field of MagLev. Reactionless drive ranks with Astrology and Homeopathy, unfortunately.
 
  • #5
sophiecentaur said:
Reactionless drive ranks with Astrology and Homeopathy, unfortunately.
There were some recent efforts by NASA to verify some tiny effects. But that has northing do with Laithwaite's misunderstandings of gyroscopes.
 
  • #6
Xilus said:
There is no way to convert angular momentum into forward momentum.

Not true. No mysteries here, just ordinary life. The ball throwing machine converts angular to linear. A bullet hitting the tail of the rooster converts linear to angular.

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  • #7
A.T. said:
There were some recent efforts by NASA to verify some tiny effects. But that has northing do with Laithwaite's misunderstandings of gyroscopes.
But there is the same feel about the topic and I am waiting for NASA to say that the effects were due to experimental error. But who knows what the finer effects of GR could produce under extremes of gravity?
 
  • #8
anorlunda said:
Not true. No mysteries here, just ordinary life. The ball throwing machine converts angular to linear. A bullet hitting the tail of the rooster converts linear to angular.

View attachment 114789

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Do you happen to have any ball park figures on that experiment?
(But linear and angular momentum are both conserved in both cases.)
 
  • #9
anorlunda said:
The ball throwing machine converts angular to linear. A bullet hitting the tail of the rooster converts linear to angular.
Energy can be transferred between linear KE a angular KE, because it is the same physical quantity.

Linear momentum and angular momentum are different quantities, that aren't converted into each other. Each is conserved on it's own.
 
  • #10
anorlunda said:
Not true. No mysteries here, just ordinary life. The ball throwing machine converts angular to linear. A bullet hitting the tail of the rooster converts linear to angular.

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Total linear and total angular momentum are conserved in both cases.
sophiecentaur said:
Google Eric Laithwaite's name and see what happened to a perfectly capable Engineer when he got involved in this topic. The Establishment treated him as a Pariah, despite his being a giant in the field of MagLev. Reactionless drive ranks with Astrology and Homeopathy, unfortunately.
And all those are against the forum rules.
 

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  • #11
mfb said:
Total linear and total angular momentum are conserved in both cases.
I stand corrected. Brain not working this morning.
 
  • #12
Do you guys think atomic physics like the LHC could lead to advanced propulsion?
How could something on the atomic scale relate to propulsion of large scale objects?
 
  • #13
The LHC does not do atomic physics. The experiments there do nuclear and particle physics.

Atomic physics is important for ion thrusters, nuclear physics is important for radioisotope power sources and can become important for nuclear reactors in space (only prototypes so far).
 
  • #14
Slingshoting around a planet leads to acceleration (right?)
If you sling shot around two, would you end up with net acceleration in the same direction?
 
  • #15
Xilus said:
Slingshoting around a planet leads to acceleration (right?)
If you sling shot around two, would you end up with net acceleration in the same direction?
It works when the first sling shot sends the craft to catch up with the second planet. Each close encounter gives the craft extra momentum - but the detail of the trajectory is fairly critical. The gain in speed will be comparable with the 'forward' speed of the target planet; the orbit round the planet has to be hyperbolic so that the craft is not captured. Google "Slingshot Orbit" Images and see loads of pictures.
 
  • #16
gravity assist does leave with a net acceleration though right?
I think it imparts momentum on the planet in the opposite direction right?
 
  • #17
Xilus said:
gravity assist does leave with a net acceleration though right?
I think it imparts momentum on the planet in the opposite direction right?
You mean a net gain in momentum.
Momentum is conserved always.
 
  • #18
Xilus said:
I think it imparts momentum on the planet in the opposite direction right?
Sure, total momentum is conserved.
Please keep the discussion on topic, or start new threads for different questions.
sophiecentaur said:
The gain in speed will be comparable with the 'forward' speed of the target planet
Only in very rare circumstances. You can only gain velocity if the outgoing trajectory is closer to the orbital direction than the incoming trajectory. But every spacecraft motion we can get with current propulsion methods is close to circular orbits. The change in the angle cannot be large, which means the increase in speed cannot be large either, especially for the inner planets.

For the inner planets, you cannot gain their orbital speed even with arbitrary initial motion - their escape velocity is too low.
 
  • #19
Xilus said:
OK so a trust can produce a torque,
But two torques can't produce a thrust?

There is no way to convert angular momentum into forward momentum.
If you stood on a low friction platform which had the ability to rotate and held out an operating giro the platform and yourself would rotate.
You could connect the platform to geared wheels and the whole caboodle would move forward.
 
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  • #20
mfb said:
For the inner planets, you cannot gain their orbital speed even with arbitrary initial motion - their escape velocity is too low.
I don't understand that bit. Escape velocity refers to getting off the surface, doesn't it? The craft doesn't get that near does it and it is very small in proportion to any of the planet's mass.
 
  • #21
sophiecentaur said:
I don't understand that bit. Escape velocity refers to getting off the surface, doesn't it? The craft doesn't get that near does it and it is very small in proportion to any of the planet's mass.
Imagine a tiny asteroid. How do you want to use it to change the spacecraft velocity by any significant amount?

The trajectory that changes the speed the most is just grazing the surface of the object, and a larger escape velocity means you can have a larger deflection at higher approach speeds.
 
  • #22
Right. It's the gravitational potential that counts, of course.
 

1. Can two gyros produce thrust?

Yes, two gyros can produce thrust through the principle of conservation of angular momentum. When two gyros spin in opposite directions, their angular momentum cancels out, resulting in a net force in the opposite direction. This force is known as thrust.

2. How do two gyros produce thrust?

Two gyros produce thrust by spinning in opposite directions and canceling out each other's angular momentum. This results in a net force in the opposite direction, which is known as thrust.

3. What factors affect the amount of thrust produced by two gyros?

The amount of thrust produced by two gyros depends on the speed of rotation, the mass and size of the gyros, and the distance between them. The faster the gyros spin and the larger their size and mass, the greater the thrust produced. Additionally, a shorter distance between the gyros will result in a stronger thrust.

4. Can two gyros produce enough thrust to lift an object?

It is possible for two gyros to produce enough thrust to lift an object, but it would require a significant amount of energy and precise control over the gyros' rotation. In most cases, other propulsion methods would be more practical and efficient for lifting objects.

5. Are there any practical applications for using two gyros to produce thrust?

Yes, two gyros can be used in some propulsion systems, such as reaction wheels and control moment gyros, to provide precise control and stabilization for spacecraft and satellites. However, there are more efficient and practical methods for producing thrust in most other applications.

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