Can we have a dedicated thread for FAQ requests?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter tltmts
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Moon
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mechanics of pushing a stick towards the moon and the implications of signal propagation speeds, particularly in relation to the speed of light and the speed of sound in materials. Participants explore the conceptual understanding of how forces and movements are transmitted through a medium, as well as the potential for creating a dedicated FAQ thread for recurring questions on this topic.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a scenario where pushing a stick towards the moon raises questions about the speed at which the effect of the push is felt, suggesting that it could lead to a misunderstanding of signal transmission faster than light.
  • Another participant asserts that the motion of the stick and the propagation of taps occur at the speed of sound in the stick, not at the speed of light.
  • Multiple participants propose that the topic should be included in a FAQ due to its frequent recurrence in discussions.
  • One participant suggests that having a dedicated thread for FAQ requests could help manage and eliminate duplicate questions, while also allowing others to contribute potential answers.
  • A participant questions why the propagation of taps occurs at the speed of sound, receiving a response that clarifies it as waves of vibrations through a medium.
  • Another participant mentions that variations on the theme complicate searches for related topics, reinforcing the need for a FAQ.
  • Some participants express frustration over the frequency of similar questions, indicating a desire for better organization of FAQs.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the need for a FAQ due to the recurring nature of the topic, but there is no consensus on the specifics of the mechanics involved in the scenario presented or the best way to structure the FAQ requests.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the mechanics of force transmission through the stick and the implications of signal propagation speeds. The discussion includes assumptions about the behavior of rigid bodies and the nature of sound waves.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for individuals interested in the physics of signal propagation, mechanics of materials, and those looking for clarity on frequently asked questions in physics forums.

tltmts
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
It takes light roughly 1.3 seconds to travel from the Earth to the moon. I have read that even if you push on one end of a stick, the effect of the push cannot reach the other side of the stick faster than c.

So suppose I held a stick in my right hand and one end of this stick is only 1cm away from the surface of the moon. My right arm is bent at a right angle. I now push my end of the stick toward the moon.

Intuitively, it seems that as soon as my arm pushed forward 1cm it would meet instant resistance that stopped it from moving more than 1cm. But if this really happened, then if I tapped Morse code on the surface of the moon I could send a signal faster than c.

So I'm guessing I would be able to continue to push my end of the stick forward more than 1cm. Indeed, I suppose I could push until I locked out my bent right arm at the elbow. I would not be able to feel the effect until enough time has passed for light to travel to the moon and back---roughly 2.6 seconds.

So suppose at time T=0 seconds I begin to push my end of the stick toward the moon. At T=1.0 seconds I have locked out my right arm---I have pushed my end of the stick forward about, say, 60cm. At T=1.3 seconds the other end of the stick hits the moon. At T=2.6 seconds I feel the effect of the other end of the stick hitting the surface of the moon.

But what will this effect be? My arm cannot remain locked out unless the stick has shortened by 59cm. But the stick has not in fact shortened, right?

So does my right hand experience a rebound at 2.6 seconds that forces it 59cm back from the moon? (I.e. a rebound with a force equivalent to the force it took me to accelerate the stick's mass 60cm toward the moon in 1 second?)
 
Physics news on Phys.org
tltmts said:
It takes light roughly 1.3 seconds to travel from the Earth to the moon. I have read that even if you push on one end of a stick, the effect of the push cannot reach the other side of the stick faster than c.

So suppose I held a stick in my right hand and one end of this stick is only 1cm away from the surface of the moon. My right arm is bent at a right angle. I now push my end of the stick toward the moon.

Intuitively, it seems that as soon as my arm pushed forward 1cm it would meet instant resistance that stopped it from moving more than 1cm. But if this really happened, then if I tapped Morse code on the surface of the moon I could send a signal faster than c.

So I'm guessing I would be able to continue to push my end of the stick forward more than 1cm. Indeed, I suppose I could push until I locked out my bent right arm at the elbow. I would not be able to feel the effect until enough time has passed for light to travel to the moon and back---roughly 2.6 seconds.

So suppose at time T=0 seconds I begin to push my end of the stick toward the moon. At T=1.0 seconds I have locked out my right arm---I have pushed my end of the stick forward about, say, 60cm. At T=1.3 seconds the other end of the stick hits the moon. At T=2.6 seconds I feel the effect of the other end of the stick hitting the surface of the moon.

But what will this effect be? My arm cannot remain locked out unless the stick has shortened by 59cm. But the stick has not in fact shortened, right?

So does my right hand experience a rebound at 2.6 seconds that forces it 59cm back from the moon? (I.e. a rebound with a force equivalent to the force it took me to accelerate the stick's mass 60cm toward the moon in 1 second?)

The motion of the stick or the propagation of the taps happens at the speed of sound in the stick, not at c.
 
Maybe we should make this a FAQ. It comes up at least once or twice a month.
 
berkeman said:
The motion of the stick or the propagation of the taps happens at the speed of sound in the stick, not at c.

Ahh...interesting.

Thanks.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
DaleSpam said:
Maybe we should make this a FAQ. It comes up at least once or twice a month.

I did read the FAQ for this forum before posting. I also did a search for "stick" in the search box before posting and didn't see anything relevant.

Though I should have tried Google before posting...as "speed of light stick" turned up this hit:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=369105
 
No worries, there are a lot of variations on the theme that don't affect the idea but make it hard to search for. It is a question that deserves a FAQ I think.
 
DaleSpam said:
Maybe we should make this a FAQ. It comes up at least once or twice a month.

I swear its more like 1-2 times a week!
 
DaleSpam said:
Maybe we should make this a FAQ. It comes up at least once or twice a month.

It falls under "rigid body doesn't square well with finite maximal speed of propagation" category. Perhaps the "Pole and the barn" problem should go into it too?
 
Why is the propagation of taps at the speed of sound?
 
  • #10
DaleSpam said:
Maybe we should make this a FAQ. It comes up at least once or twice a month.

Drakkith said:
I swear its more like 1-2 times a week!

Just a thought, is it worth having a specific thread for people to recommend FAQ's? For example, I've seen a number of things that could be potential candidates.

I know we all should make the recommendation in the thread where we see the opportunity for the FAQ, but having one thread dedicated to FAQ requests might help eliminate duplicate requests and offer a way to manage all of the potential FAQ's needed.

It would also give others the opportunity to offer a potential FAQ answer in the request. Might help save some Admin time.

Anyway, as I said, it was just a thought. :smile:
 
  • #11
jewbinson said:
Why is the propagation of taps at the speed of sound?

Because that's what sound is- waves of vibrations. The speed of sound in a medium is the speed at which waves are transmitted through the medium.
 
  • #12
rede96 said:
Just a thought, is it worth having a specific thread for people to recommend FAQ's? For example, I've seen a number of things that could be potential candidates.

I know we all should make the recommendation in the thread where we see the opportunity for the FAQ, but having one thread dedicated to FAQ requests might help eliminate duplicate requests and offer a way to manage all of the potential FAQ's needed.

It would also give others the opportunity to offer a potential FAQ answer in the request. Might help save some Admin time.

Anyway, as I said, it was just a thought. :smile:
It is a good thought. I did exactly that, but got no traction:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=513411
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
4K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
890
  • · Replies 25 ·
Replies
25
Views
7K
  • · Replies 40 ·
2
Replies
40
Views
5K
Replies
3
Views
2K
Replies
21
Views
9K