Can we say that a charged balloon has a center of charge?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around whether a charged balloon can be considered to have a center of charge, particularly in the context of its charge distribution and the implications for calculating forces between charged objects. The scope includes theoretical considerations, mathematical reasoning, and the application of the shell theorem.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that a charged balloon can be approximated as a point charge, especially when considering the charge distribution on its surface.
  • Others argue that if the charge density is uniform, the center of charge can be considered to be at the geometric center of the balloon.
  • One participant mentions the shell theorem, stating that a uniformly charged spherical shell creates the same external electric field as a point charge with the same total charge.
  • There is a discussion about the force between two charged balloons, with some participants asserting that the formula ##F_\mathrm e=k\frac {Q_1 Q_2}{r^2}## can be applied under certain conditions, such as spherical shape and uniform charge distribution.
  • Some participants note that the charge distribution may not necessarily match the mass distribution, raising questions about the validity of applying certain formulas.
  • It is mentioned that any distribution of point charges can be approximated as a single point charge if observed from a sufficient distance.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of the point charge approximation and the conditions under which the force formula can be used. There is no consensus on whether the charge distribution will always match the mass distribution or on the implications of the shell theorem in this context.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include assumptions about uniform charge distribution, the spherical shape of the balloons, and the conditions under which the shell theorem applies. The discussion does not resolve whether these assumptions hold in all cases.

Lotto
Messages
253
Reaction score
16
TL;DR
We can say that the balloon has a center of mass circa in the middle. When we charge the balloon so that charge density is everywhere the same, can we say that the center of the total charge is in the middel as well?
Doing so, we can consider the balloon to be a point charge (approximately). Can we do it in this case, when there are only electrons on its surface? Or is it stupid and we can't do it under any circumstances?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Lotto said:
TL;DR Summary: We can say that the balloon has a center of mass circa in the middle. When we charge the balloon so that charge density is everywhere the same, can we say that the center of the total charge is in the middel as well?

Doing so, we can consider the balloon to be a point charge (approximately). Can we do it in this case, when there are only electrons on its surface? Or is it stupid and we can't do it under any circumstances?
The shell theorem tells you that a uniformly charge sphere or spherical shell creates the same external electric field as a point charge with the same total charge. And, the field inside a uniformly charged spherical shell is zero.

You should look up a proof of the shell theorem. It applies to electric fields and gravitational fields and, in fact, anything that obeys the inverse square law.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: DaveE
PeroK said:
The shell theorem tells you that a uniformly charge sphere or spherical shell creates the same external electric field as a point charge with the same total charge. And, the field inside a uniformly charged spherical shell is zero.

You should look up a proof of the shell theorem. It applies to electric fields and gravitational fields and, in fact, anything that obeys the inverse square law.
And if I have two charged balloons and distance between their centers of masses is ##r##, can we say ##F_\mathrm e=k\frac {Q_1 Q_2}{r^2}##?
 
Lotto said:
And if I have two charged balloons and distance between their centers of masses is ##r##, can we say ##F_\mathrm e=k\frac {Q_1 Q_2}{r^2}##?
As long as they are spherical and uniformly charged - and assuming the centre of mass is at the geometric centre of the circle - then yes!
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Lotto
Lotto said:
And if I have two charged balloons and distance between their centers of masses is ##r##, can we say ##F_\mathrm e=k\frac {Q_1 Q_2}{r^2}##?
To the extent that the balloons are spherical, have a uniform thickness (so a spherically symmetric mass distribution) and that the balloons are non-conducting so that a spherically symmetric charge distribution matching the uniform mass distribution is not affected by the approach of the other charged balloon, the answer is yes. The formula will work.

Note that there is no guarantee that the charge distribution will match the mass distribution. But I am assuming that you intend for the two to match.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Lotto
Lotto said:
Doing so, we can consider the balloon to be a point charge (approximately).
Any distribution of point charges can be approximated as a single point charge if you are far enough away from it.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
2K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
2K
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 36 ·
2
Replies
36
Views
6K