Can You Prove This Measure Theory Problem?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a measure theory problem involving the convergence of functions in measure and the implications of this convergence on the measure of certain sets. Participants explore the validity of a proof related to the inequality of measures and the application of the triangle inequality in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a proof attempting to show that if \( f_n \rightarrow f \) in measure, then \( \mu(\{f > h\}) \leq A \) given \( \mu(\{f_n > h\}) \leq A \).
  • Another participant questions the conclusion drawn from the limits, suggesting that the inequality \( A < 0 + A \) does not necessarily hold, as it only implies \( A \leq 0 + A \).
  • Concerns are raised about the application of the triangle inequality in the proof, with a participant asking for clarification on how the inequality was derived.
  • A participant proposes a method to prove the existence of an \( \epsilon > 0 \) that leads to a contradiction, based on the properties of measurable sets and their unions.
  • Further discussion includes the challenge of proving the existence of \( \epsilon \) and the complexity of the proof involved.
  • One participant reflects on the learning process, suggesting that grappling with the problem over time is essential for understanding.
  • A theorem regarding the triangle inequality for measures is presented, which some participants initially dispute but later acknowledge as correct.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the proof and the application of the triangle inequality. There is no consensus on the correctness of the initial proof or the conclusions drawn from it, indicating that multiple competing views remain.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the complexity of proving certain results in measure theory and the potential for misunderstanding in the application of limits and inequalities. The discussion reflects a range of assumptions and interpretations that are not fully resolved.

johnson123
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Problem: f_{n}\rightarrow f in measure, \mu(\left\{f_{n}&gt;h\right\})\leq A

Prove that \mu(\left\{f&gt;h\right\})\leq A.

My Work:

Suppose not, then \mu(\left\{f&gt;h\right\}) &gt; A.

From the triangle inequality for measures we get

\mu(\left\{f&gt;h\right\}) = \mu(\left\{f-f_{n}+f_{n}&gt;h\right\})<br /> <br /> \leq\mu(\left\{f-f_{n}&gt;0\right\}) + \mu(\left\{f_{n}&gt;h\right\}).

So A&lt;\mu(\left\{f-f_{n}&gt;0\right\}) + \mu(\left\{f_{n}&gt;h\right\})<br /> <br /> \leq\mu(\left\{f-f_{n}&gt;0\right\}) + A.

Taking limits on both sides (n->00)yields:

A &lt; 0 + A \Rightarrow\Leftarrow.

I do not have much of a background for analysis, so any suggestions are welcome.
 
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johnson123 said:
So A&lt;\mu(\left\{f-f_{n}&gt;0\right\}) + \mu(\left\{f_{n}&gt;h\right\})<br /> <br /> \leq\mu(\left\{f-f_{n}&gt;0\right\}) + A.

Taking limits on both sides (n->00)yields:

A &lt; 0 + A \Rightarrow\Leftarrow.

This conclusion doesn't seem right. If you know

<br /> \lim_{n\to\infty} X_n = X,<br />

<br /> \lim_{n\to\infty} Y_n = Y,<br />

and

<br /> X_n &lt; Y_n,\quad \forall\;n\in\mathbb{N},<br />

then it only follows that

<br /> X \leq Y.<br />

The inequality X &lt; Y is not necessarily true. So in your case, the limit gives you an inequality

<br /> A \leq 0 + A.<br />
 
johnson123 said:
From the triangle inequality for measures we get

\mu(\left\{f&gt;h\right\}) = \mu(\left\{f-f_{n}+f_{n}&gt;h\right\})<br /> <br /> \leq\mu(\left\{f-f_{n}&gt;0\right\}) + \mu(\left\{f_{n}&gt;h\right\}).

I don't think the "triangle inequality" was right either.

<br /> \Big(\;f(x)-f_n(x) &gt; 0\quad\textrm{and}\quad f_n(x)&gt;h\;\Big)\quad\implies\quad f(x)-f_n(x) + f_n(x) &gt; h<br />

so

<br /> \{x\in X\;|\; f(x)-f_n(x) &gt; 0\}\;\cap\;\{x\in X\;|\; f_n(x)&gt;h\} \;\subset\; \{x\in X\;|\; f(x)-f_n(x) + f_n(x) &gt; h\}.<br />

I don't see how you get that inequality from this. Of course it could be, that you did it some other way... I don't know about it at the moment. Perhaps you could explain in more detail how you thought that should work?
 
Here are key steps of my proof.

Assume that there is \delta &gt; 0 so that

<br /> \mu(\{x\in X\;|\; f(x) &gt; h\}) = A + \delta &gt; A.<br />

Prove that there exists \epsilon &gt; 0 so that

<br /> \mu(\{x\in X\;|\; f(x) &gt; h + \epsilon\}) &gt; A + \frac{\delta}{2}.<br />

To accomplish this, to my knowledge the only way is to assume that such epsilon would not exist, and then use the standard result that if there is a sequence of measurable sets

<br /> X_1\subset X_2\subset X_3\subset\cdots<br />

then

<br /> \mu(\bigcup_{n=1}^{\infty} X_n) = \lim_{n\to\infty} \mu(X_n),<br />

and arrive at contradiction.

Then prove the inclusion

<br /> \{x\in X\;|\; f(x) &gt; h+\epsilon\} \subset \{x\in X\;|\; f_n(x) &gt; h\}\;\cup\; \{x\in X\;|\; |f(x) - f_n(x)| \geq \epsilon\}.<br />

This should be close to the goal.
 
Last edited:
After proving the inclusion I get A + \delta/2 &lt; A+\epsilon \Rightarrow \delta/2 &lt; \epsilon

From this how can I arrive at a contradiction.
 
johnson123 said:
After proving the inclusion I get A + \delta/2 &lt; A+\epsilon \Rightarrow \delta/2 &lt; \epsilon

You don't get precisely that very naturally.

First: How far did you get in proving that the epsilon originally exists? I skipped all details of the proof in homework helping spirit, but it is a highly non-trivial proof.
 
I agree it is not a simple fact. I did not thoroughly go through that result, I am more interested in seeing the idea(punchline) in the proof you kindly posted.
 
hmhmhm... I'm not sure what I should add to this anymore. It's not allowable to give complete solutions here... and it's so relative that when hints are fine and when there is too much of them... hmhmh... :devil: Considering your earlier mistakes with limits and triangle inequality, IMO you just must put more time into this. You know. Fight with the problem for hours and hours, keep breaks, then come back to the problem and so on, and see how things progress :smile: That's the only way to learn.
 
triangle inequality for measures.

Theorem: \mu ( \left\{ \Sigma f_{n} &gt; \Sigma \epsilon_{n}\right\} ) \leq \Sigma \mu(\left\{ f_{n} &gt; \epsilon_{n} \right\})

Proof: If for all n we have f_{n} \leq \epsilon_{n} then

\Sigma f_{n}(x) \leq \Sigma \epsilon_{n} and so

\bigcap \left\{f_{n} \leq \epsilon_{n} \right\} \subseteq \left\{ \Sigma f_{n} \leq \Sigma \epsilon_{n} \right\}

This Implies \left\{ \Sigma f_{n} &gt; \Sigma \epsilon_{n} \right\} = \left\{ \Sigma f_{n} \leq \Sigma \epsilon_{n} \right\}^{c} \subseteq ( \bigcap \left\{f_{n} \leq \epsilon_{n}\right\})^{c} = \bigcup \left\{f_{n} &gt; \epsilon_{n} \right\}.
 
  • #10
Oh, sorry. The triangle inequality was right then. I hadn't seen it before.
 

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