Car turning with external force help from spoiler

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the effects of adding a spoiler to a car during turns, particularly focusing on how it may influence centripetal force, tire friction, and overall handling dynamics. Participants explore theoretical implications, practical applications, and the physics of turning in vehicles, with references to racing contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that a spoiler could provide additional centripetal force, potentially allowing for faster turns by reducing the load on the tires.
  • Another participant questions whether the lateral friction on the wheels would decrease with the addition of the spoiler when cornering at the same speed.
  • Some participants argue that a rudder-like spoiler may not be effective and could lead to loss of control, increasing the likelihood of fishtailing or spinning out.
  • There is a discussion about the need for the spoiler to apply downforce on the rear wheels to maintain stability during turns.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about how the forces would balance between the tires and the spoiler, suggesting that the centripetal force acting on the rear wheels might decrease due to the spoiler's influence.
  • Another participant proposes that the configuration of the spoiler could be adjusted to help direct forces appropriately during turns, but acknowledges the complexity of achieving this without compromising control.
  • Some participants emphasize that a car's movement is primarily controlled by its wheels, not by aerodynamic forces, which complicates the use of a spoiler for turning assistance.
  • There are inquiries about the specific racing context for which the spoiler is intended, indicating that the effectiveness may vary based on the type of racing (e.g., round track vs. road course).

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the effectiveness and implications of using a spoiler for turning. There is no consensus on whether a spoiler would enhance or detract from a car's handling during turns, and multiple competing perspectives remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that the discussion is limited by assumptions about the aerodynamic properties of the spoiler and the specific dynamics of car handling, which may vary based on design and context.

Who May Find This Useful

Individuals interested in automotive engineering, racing dynamics, and vehicle handling mechanics may find this discussion relevant.

  • #31
DaveC426913 said:
this is indeed the essence of his idea. Movable rudders.

As you can't gaurantee the airflow, all a movable rudder will do is make it seem like you are driving in a constantly changing cross wind.

Even in theory, you are still limited by the amount of lateral grip the tyres can withstand.It's an interesting concept though.
 
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  • #32
xxChrisxx said:
As you can't gaurantee the airflow, all a movable rudder will do is make it seem like you are driving in a constantly changing cross wind.
His idea is that the rudders would actively engage when turning.
xxChrisxx said:
Even in theory, you are still limited by the amount of lateral grip the tyres can withstand.
The whole point of what he's proposing is to use aerodynamics to lessen the dependence on lateral grip. If the car is assisted through its turn, there is less strain on the tires, therefore less likely to slip. (Taking the principle to its extreme: If one used the Batmobile/Mythbusters "grapple-gun technique" to turn corners, then the dependence on lateral grip of tires is reduced to zero - just substitute still air for telephone pole. :biggrin:)

I am not condoning the idea; I don't think it will work either. I think it will render the vehicle uncontrollable. But I am not an expert in this field. I just want to make sure he gets the best answers possible based on correct information.
 
  • #33
DaveC426913 said:
I think it will render the vehicle uncontrollable.
How would it do that?
 
  • #34
mender said:
How would it do that?

Powerful transverse forces on the vehicle right in the middle of a turn?
 
  • #35
DaveC426913 said:
Powerful transverse forces on the vehicle right in the middle of a turn?
I'm not sure how you're visualizing this, but I can tell you that powerful transverse forces are always acting on the car during cornering, ones that are not always balanced or predictable, and the driver is expected to compensate accordingly.

I'm not seeing a situation that renders the vehicle uncontrollable, so if you have one in mind I'd be interested in reading about it.
 
  • #36
mender said:
I'm not sure how you're visualizing this, but I can tell you that powerful transverse forces are always acting on the car during cornering, ones that are not always balanced or predictable, and the driver is expected to compensate accordingly.

I'm not seeing a situation that renders the vehicle uncontrollable, so if you have one in mind I'd be interested in reading about it.

Essentially, a VERY powerful gale force gust of wind is going to hit the car crosswise, the moment it goes into a turn, and then stop the moment it leaves the run.
 
  • #37
mender said:
As an example of that extreme, a go-kart has no suspension and therefore no roll but still has load transfer as dictated by the C of G and track width; by your way of thinking it shouldn't, right?

Hey guys, first off, thanks for all your input. In terms of this quote above, can't you cancel load transfer by adding a torque opposing the torque that is causing it (normal force and lateral friction force). Correct me if I am wrong but the load transfer happens because of a torque from mostly firction (some normal force as well) on all four tires as going arround a turn, they would be in similar directions thus producing a torque that is thus "countered" by increasing load on one side and decresaing the one on another. Again correct me if I am wrong I am just throwing ideas around. Thanks
 
Last edited:
  • #38
It would require a wing of very large area.

steve-kinser-519.jpg


There is much more to reap from negating lift/adding downforce than by using an airfoil to affect a car on the axis we are speaking of.
 
  • #39
mark77
have you taken the time to READ the posts I noted?
 
  • #40
mark77 said:
Hey guys, first off, thanks for all your input. In terms of this quote above, can't you cancel load transfer by adding a torque opposing the torque that is causing it (normal force and lateral friction force).
No, you can't "cancel" load transfer because you can't cancel inertia. It's quite important (to us anyway) that you understand this fact; can you at least address this so we know where you're at before we move on?

If you are meaning "compensate for the load transfer" (and it certainly sounds like that's what you're proposing), that is another thing entirely, but please, let's make sure you have the first part right, okay?
 

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