Category theory and beyond the standard model

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the book "Sets for Mathematics" by F. William Lawvere and Robert Rosebrugh, focusing on its approach to category theory and its implications for mathematics and physics. Participants explore the book's content, its accessibility, and its potential connections to advanced topics in physics, particularly in relation to the standard model and concepts like symmetry and geometry.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants find the book accessible and not overly difficult, suggesting it serves as a solid introduction to category theory.
  • Others argue that the book's focus on mappings and the unification of concepts may be beneficial for understanding advanced topics in physics.
  • There are observations about changes in terminology and the integration of computer science concepts into category theory.
  • One participant expresses concern about the potential difficulty of memorizing numerous definitions in abstract algebra.
  • Some participants question the reliance on symmetry in physics, advocating for a geometric approach instead.
  • A later reply mentions the historical context of massless neutrinos and the challenges in deriving lepton masses, indicating a broader debate on foundational principles in physics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally express differing views on the book's complexity and its relevance to physics. While some appreciate its simplicity and foundational approach, others feel that it may not adequately address the complexities of physical theories. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best foundational approach to physics, with competing views on the roles of symmetry and geometry.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in their understanding and the evolving nature of terminology in mathematics and physics. There is also mention of unresolved issues related to the treatment of infinite sets in physics.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and professionals interested in category theory, its applications in mathematics, and its implications for theoretical physics, particularly those exploring foundational concepts and the interplay between geometry and symmetry.

  • #31
I've sometimes found that exhibiting just a touch of madness helps when dealing with the government and other authorities, depending on the effect desired. For example, explaining that Einstein was wrong, you've found the unified field theory, and are working on it at home does wonders.
 
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  • #32
Chronos said:
I need to find a way to include 'naive' in my tag line. Isn't symmetry breaking merely a geometric extension of relativity? I like the geometry part and can see how you can derive relavativistic reference frames in any coordinate system. But, symmetry breaking, as conventionally portrayed, appears suspect. Symmetries merely converge, IMO.

I don't believe in symmetry breaking, but I'm having trouble figuring out the rest of your post. How is symmetry breaking a geometric extension of relativity? One is in QM, the other GR, and they're not combined. And what does "Symmetries must converge" mean in more detail?
 
  • #33
Hurkyl said:
Aww, I wish I could have taken a category theory course when I was a teenage undergraduate. :cry: (Or even have heard of it!)

Well, there is not yet undergraduate category for physicists, but mathematicians are a lot more conversant on it than ten years before.

the next buzzword is "scheme"
 
  • #34
arivero said:
Well, there is not yet undergraduate category for physicists, but mathematicians are a lot more conversant on it than ten years before.

But there is! At least in book form - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226288625/?tag=pfamazon01-20, by Robert Geroch. Geroch purposely and provocatively chose his title to indicate that, these days, mathematical physics includes topics other than those covered in more traditional mathematical physics courses. He starts with a few pages on category theory and and uses category theory as framework for discussing many topics.

Geroch's book contains a broad survey of abstract algebra, topology, and functional analysis, and it does a wonderful job at motivating (mathematically) mathematical definitions and constructions. However, its layout is abominable. Surprisingly, since Geroch is an expert, it contains no differential geometry.

This book was first published over twenty years ago, and is based on a course Geroch gave at the University of Chicago.
 
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  • #35
George Jones said:
This book was first published over twenty years ago, and is based on a course Geroch gave at the University of Chicago.

Yeah, cool. Of course, being at Chicago (one of the founding centres of Category Theory) one would find it difficult to escape categories.

:smile:
 
  • #37
CarlB said:
Lubos got a little interested in Centauros...

Goodness knows why. It's hard to imagine he's thinking what you're thinking ...
 
  • #38
Oh no, it's just clear that cosmic rays are where the next new physics comes from, if it's not the LHC.
 
  • #39
CarlB said:
...it's just clear that cosmic rays are where the next new physics comes from, if it's not the LHC.

Well, there's a whole host of exciting possibilities. They just spotted a black hole at the centre of a globular cluster - only the second one they looked at.
 
  • #40
I would think that finding a black hole in the center of a globular cluster would put new wind under the MOND sails. By the way, I just realized that when I wrote "new physics", being a particle guy, I automatically meant new particle physics, and was thinking in terms of detectors rather than obesrvatories.
 

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