Center of mass in Lagrangian mechanics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around proving the motion of the center of mass within the framework of Lagrangian mechanics, drawing parallels to Newtonian mechanics. Participants explore the formulation of the Lagrangian for a system of particles and the implications of using the Euler-Lagrange equations and Noether's theorem.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the Lagrangian for a system of N particles and seeks assistance in deriving the motion of the center of mass from it.
  • Another participant suggests using the Euler-Lagrange equations with generalized coordinates to proceed with the derivation.
  • A different participant expresses concern that using the Euler-Lagrange equations may increase the number of degrees of freedom, questioning whether this is problematic.
  • Another participant proposes applying Noether's theorem, noting that the Lagrangian exhibits broken Galilean symmetry due to the external potential, and suggests that this can lead to the equation of motion for the center of mass.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best approach to take, as there are differing opinions on the implications of using the Euler-Lagrange equations and the application of Noether's theorem.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved concerns regarding the increase in degrees of freedom when applying the Euler-Lagrange equations and the implications of the broken symmetry in the Lagrangian.

ralqs
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We all know the proof, from Newtonian mechanics, that the motion of the center of mass of a system of particles can be found by treating the center of mass as a particle with all the external forces acting on it. I want to prove the same think, but within the framework of Lagrangian mechanics, and I',m having some trouble.

So to start, the Lagrangian of a system of N particles is
L=\sum_{i=1}^N \left(\frac{1}{2}m_i v_i^2 - U_{\mathrm{ext.}, i}(\vec{r}_i)\right) - U_{\mathrm{int.}}(\vec{r}_1, ..., \vec{r}_N).
U_{\mathrm{ext.},i} is the potential energy due to any external forces on the ith particle. With a little algebra, we can rewrite this as

L=\frac{1}{2}MV^2 - U_{\mathrm{ext.}} + \sum_{i=1}^N \frac{1}{2}m_i \tilde{v}_i^2 - U_{\mathrm{int.}}

where M=\sum m_i is the total mass, V is the speed of the center of mass, U_{\mathrm{ext.}} = \sum U_{\mathrm{ext.},i}, and \tilde{v}_i is the speed of the ith particle relative to the center of mass.

I don't know where to go from here. Help?
 
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You have the Lagrangian; what do you usually do with it? Invoke the Euler-Lagrange equations. With a set of generalized coordinates Q, \bar q_i, you should be ready to go.
 
I thought of that, but I had a problem: the number of degrees of freedom seems to go up, is that a problem?
 
I'd use Noether's theorem in extended form. You have a Lagrangian where explicit Galilean symmetry is broken by considering a part of the system described by an external potential. Otherwise the Lagrangian is invariant under Galileo boosts.

From the partial symmetry of the Lagrangian under Galileo boosts you should get the equation of motion for the center of mass

M \dot{V}=-\partial_X U_{\text{ext}}(X).
 

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