Change in Homology from Change in Coefficients

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Bacle
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Change Coefficients
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of changing coefficients in homology theory, particularly focusing on the nature of torsion in relation to specific spaces and coefficient choices. Participants explore whether torsion is an intrinsic property of a space or dependent on the coefficients used in homology calculations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire whether a specific non-trivial cycle remains a cycle after changing coefficients, referencing the universal coefficient theorem.
  • There is a question about whether torsion is intrinsic to a space, with examples like the torus suggesting that torsion appears with certain coefficients (e.g., Z/2) but not with others (e.g., Z).
  • One participant argues that torsion is not intrinsic, citing that the Z/2 homology of the torus is all torsion while its Z homology is free abelian.
  • Another participant mentions that for unorientable manifolds, the top Z homology can be zero while the top Z/2 homology is Z/2, indicating a difference in torsion properties based on coefficients.
  • There is a discussion on whether torsion reveals useful topological information or merely reflects algebraic properties of the coefficients, with some suggesting that torsion can be seen as an intrinsic topological property under certain conditions.
  • Participants propose that intrinsic n-torsion can exist, where Z-chains may not be cycles in Z but are cycles in Z/nZ.
  • In cohomology, the first Stiefel-Whitney class is mentioned as a Z/2 cocycle that indicates non-orientability of a vector bundle, linking torsion to topological properties.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether torsion is intrinsic to a space, with some arguing for its intrinsic nature under specific coefficient conditions while others maintain it is not intrinsic. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the broader implications of torsion in relation to topology.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion is dependent on the definitions of torsion and the specific coefficient rings used, highlighting the complexity and potential limitations in understanding torsion's role in homology.

Bacle
Messages
656
Reaction score
1
Hi, everyone:

If we change the coefficients used to calculate homology, the universal coefficient
theorem tells us how the homology changes. Still, is there a way of knowing whether
a specific (non-trivial) cycle under certain coefficient is still a cycle after the coefficient
change?

Thanks.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
I think my post was not very clear: I am curious as to whether torsion is intrinsic
to a space, in that if a space X has torsion, then homology with _any coefficients_
would also have torsion. I was thinking of examples like that of the torus T, in which
torsion appears when we use coefficients with torsion, e.g, Z/2, but not otherwise.
 
Bacle said:
I think my post was not very clear: I am curious as to whether torsion is intrinsic
to a space, in that if a space X has torsion, then homology with _any coefficients_
would also have torsion. I was thinking of examples like that of the torus T, in which
torsion appears when we use coefficients with torsion, e.g, Z/2, but not otherwise.

Torsion is not intrinsic. For instance the Z/2 homology of the torus is all torsion but its Z homology is free abelian.

For unorientable manifolds such as the Klein bottle the top Z homology is zero but the top z/2 homology is Z/2.

If the coefficient ring is the rational numbers there is never any torsion.
 
lavinia said:
Torsion is not intrinsic. For instance the Z/2 homology of the torus is all torsion but its Z homology is free abelian.

For unorientable manifolds such as the Klein bottle the top Z homology is zero but the top z/2 homology is Z/2.

If the coefficient ring is the rational numbers there is never any torsion.

But then does torsion really tell us something useful about the topology of a space, or does it just reveal some algebraic property of the coefficients used?
 
Bacle said:
But then does torsion really tell us something useful about the topology of a space, or does it just reveal some algebraic property of the coefficients used?

yes. Unorientablility is intrinsinc. In this sense you might say that torsion is intrinsic though it is only picked up in certain coefficient rings and not in others.

In the real projective plane all cycles in all dimensions are torsion in that their Z-boundaries are double another chain. So over Z they are not cycles but over Z/2 they are.

If you look at it this way then torsion is an intrinsic topological property. maybe the right way to look at it in homology is to say that there is intrinsic 2-torsion when a chain is not a Z-cycle but is a z/2 cycle. So I guess I should take back my statement that torsion is not intrinsic.

Similarly you could have Z-chains that are not cyles but are cycles in Z/nZ. This would be intrinsic n-torsion.

In cohomology the first Stiefel-Whitney class is a Z/2 cocycle that is not zero if an only if the vector bundle is not orientable. For the tangent bundle this means that it is not zero if and only if the manifold is not orientable.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
6K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
5K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
5K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
4K