News China-Japan Soccer Rivalry: World Cup Consequences?

[sid_galt]

I rule out domestic examples because China isn't harming any country besides itself.

Cruelty of a country isn't measured in how many countries it invaded or how many foreigners it killed. By doing that, one is accepting the premise that a country is a fundamental unit, that the individuals of a country are inseparable from each other which is wrong.

Cruelty is cruelty whether it is done by a dictator to the people of a country or by one countries people to another countries' people.

Hitler killed 6 million jews. Many of them were germans. Would you honestly say that what Hitler did to the jews who were germans was not cruelty?


Millions have died under Communist slavery in China and free thought is still censored there. If you want to talk in terms of numbers, some Chinese have drained a lot more blood than people of many other countries.

 

[kaos]

Cruelty of a country isn't measured in how many countries it invaded or how many foreigners it killed. By doing that, one is accepting the premise that a country is a fundamental unit, that the individuals of a country are inseparable from each other which is wrong.

Cruelty is cruelty whether it is done by a dictator to the people of a country or by one countries people to another countries' people.

Hitler killed 6 million jews. Many of them were germans. Would you honestly say that what Hitler did to the jews who were germans was not cruelty?


Millions have died under Communist slavery in China and free thought is still censored there. If you want to talk in terms of numbers, some Chinese have drained a lot more blood than people of many other countries.

Errr excuse me , but how did u come up with this?

 

[outsider]

Suppose you have a child. Suppose you do not believe in physical punishment. However, your neighbour sees your child doing something that he sees as morally wrong and thinks he is doing you a favor when he smacks your kid upside the head.

Right / Wrong?

Suppose your kid goes to private school, and the teacher smacks your kid upside the head.

Right / Wrong?

Policeman, busts your kid up real good.

Right / Wrong?

As a parent, we have the right to teach our own children the way we see fit. (This is an old skool way of thinking). In today's world, we are constantly under the supervision of the law & the government. In most cases, they provide good guidance, but there are times when they are wrong. (movie: "I Am Sam")

The United Nations is a political venue for governing governments.

Each country has their own rules, regulations, practices and policies. This is no different than a protestants & catholics. All originated w/ white people from the same continent, using the same rule book, but completely different interpretations.

We all have our own problems and shortfalls. Sometimes it's better to leave each other's kids alone and let their parents do the parenting. Who asked you anyway?

 

[outsider]

Millions have died under Communist slavery in China and free thought is still censored there. If you want to talk in terms of numbers, some Chinese have drained a lot more blood than people of many other countries.

I don't understand why people make such bold statements.

"some" Chinese have drained "a lot more" blood than people of "many other" countries. Unbelievable statement. Where did you go wrong? - nowhere. Where did you go right? - nowhere. What is your point? - Chinese are bad in the big scheme of things because you think so. Then why don't you just say so? Go do something instead of noncontributing the good of all and taking up bytes on a server.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I don't understand why people make such bold statements.

"some" Chinese have drained "a lot more" blood than people of "many other" countries. Unbelievable statement. Where did you go wrong? - nowhere. Where did you go right? - nowhere. What is your point? - Chinese are bad in the big scheme of things because you think so. Then why don't you just say so? Go do something instead of noncontributing the good of all and taking up bytes on a server.

Sid is actually the type of individual who gets suckered by books and statistics as per my first post under the 'Source vs. Content' thread.

He is actually genuinely believing what he is posting and the fact that the Chinese 'deny' it is merely a cover-up to him.

Well it has to be 'true' because The Black Book of Communism and Roderick MacFarquhar say it is true and they are published by Harvard and Oxford press respectively.

He'll never find out that his information is erroneous because he read it in those books, he has no reason to doubt it and he certainly won't be purchasing a new copy of those books any time soon... And so the myth gets perpetuated.

 

[Smurf]

Okay, does the black book of communism actually exist? I've heard several references to that, is it an actual book? Or just a figure of speech?

 

[The Smoking Man]

Okay, does the black book of communism actually exist? I've heard several references to that, is it an actual book? Or just a figure of speech?

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674076087/104-7335484-7967968?v=glance

 

[Daminc]

Just to comment on the obvious

Winners write history. Different generations rewrite history. I doubt there is any historical references that are complete and unbiased.

All major countries have crimes of the past (and present) and will probably continue to do so.

Americans butched most of the indiginous population when they expanded. Britian butched people all over the world when they extended their Empire. Russia, China, Germany, France etc etc etc have all been bad people at one time or another.

If Japan want to clean the slate of there past mistakes and start afresh then so be it. If China want to remember to past to honour the sacrifices then so be it. What's the problem?

 

[russ_watters]

TSM, could you be more specific? Are you saying that things like "The Great Leap Forward" didn't happen or are you just disagreeing about how many millions of people died? Does it really make any difference if it was 10 million or 20 million?

 

[entropy+time=fun]

I personally find it quite disgusting, that the chinese joke and always tend to take an extra inch from Japan. These two nations are very close geographically but they argue and boo over football (i am english) especially when it comes to such patriotism. I have never seen or heard of another country booing during another countries national anthem, this could have been a very major blow to the citizens of Japan those who were standing in the crowd and also those watchinng from their houses. Its appalling really...


Thankyou,

entropy+time=fun

 

[outsider]

I personally find it quite disgusting, that the chinese joke and always tend to take an extra inch from Japan.

you personally find it disgustng... so who are you? and what chinese joke are you referring? and what is this extra inch you speak of?

These two nations are very close geographically but they argue and boo over football (i am english) especially when it comes to such patriotism.

I have no idea what your point is here. Is there a thought to be considered? - it appears to be "neighbors should not disagree"... if this is your point, then you obviously live in a box of idealisms... are you still in high school?

I have never seen or heard of another country booing during another countries national anthem, this could have been a very major blow to the citizens of Japan those who were standing in the crowd and also those watchinng from their houses. Its appalling really...

Although booing certainly isn't the higher ground, it does not surprise me at all. If you are a football fan, you should know that during World Cup 2002 (the most recent one), when england played Argentina there was booing from the english fans. I hope you are unappalled.

As far as "this could have been a very major blow to the citizens of Japan those who were standing in the crowd and also those watching from their houses."- Firstly, this statement cannot be proven... secondly, why would you even say this?

If it sounds like I'm getting personal, I apologize... but if you are not going to advance knowledge or the discussion, then please say nothing. Sidebar opinions should still be supported with real facts or experiences. What would happen if I said Canadians or English Suck? This would become a messy place with all sorts of ugly useless bantor. That is the point I want to make about your post. Its plain thoughtless.

Do yourself a favor and think about what you say before you say it. At this point you don't make a very good football fan, and do not represent england very well. If I were english, I would want you to shut up and stop embarassing my country.

 

[The Smoking Man]

TSM, could you be more specific? Are you saying that things like "The Great Leap Forward" didn't happen or are you just disagreeing about how many millions of people died? Does it really make any difference if it was 10 million or 20 million?

You have not checked the data as presented, I see.

What happened is that the whole observation of history is skewed.

Instead of a spike of deaths now during 'the great leap forward', as the site observes:

The relevant figure is 4.5 per 1000 as is commonly available in publications by the enemies of the Great Leap in power in China today. Indeed, MacFarquhar himself lists the correct figure in a table on page five of the third volume of his book series.

The correct figure for 1960 and other years is listed in common Chinese statistical sources. Using that figure and the others for 1960-2, one would have to extrapolate to arrive at the often-used 30 million figure of bourgeois sources. Just as easily, one could point out without extrapolating the following: 1) The death rate in 1959 was better than in 1952 and about equal to 1953. 2) The death rate in 1961 was even better. 3) The death rate in 1962 was the best seen in the People's Republic of China up to that date. It was only the year 1960 which was worse than any year since Liberation in 1949. If radical politics and collectivization mostly caused the famine, then why did it not hit hardest in 1958 and 1959 in the commune upsurge and instead chose the worst weather year when communes were already dismantled or being dismantled?

A 1984 Associated Press (AP) article against the Great Leap ran again in October, 1999 in the South China Morning Post for the 50th anniversary of the Liberation of China in 1949. Significantly, the article admitted what MIM has been saying -- that the figure of 30 million starved in the Great Leap is only possible by assuming normal birth rates during a tumultuous period where people worked day and night and studied in public meetings in between.

"Basing their calculations on the 1953 population of 583 million and the 1964 total of 695 million, and on normal fertility rates, they concluded that infant mortality and other deaths were much higher than officially reported."(2)

In other words, your statement just went on to prove that you are still willing to attribute deaths to the Great Leap Forward that are actually not out of the ordinary for any other year in that period.

The death rate was proven to be greater in 1952 and actually showed a trend of IMPROVEMENT in the years of the Great Leap Forward and the additional deaths which were attributed to natural calamity in subsequent years (Previously denied because of the sheer numbers stated in MacFarquhar's book) are now more feasable.

Now you tossed out two numbers ... "10 million or 20 million" ... are you deliberately trying to ignore the fact that the error is NOT of a magnitude of 2 as you imply but a magnitude of 10?

His computations were based on 4.5 deaths per 100 where his own charts state that the were 4.5 deaths per 1000.

MacFarquhar claims a 'worst case scenario' of 30 million. Well, if you now compute the deaths as 4.5 in 1000 instead of 4.5 in 100 you would come out with a 'worst case scenario' of 3 million wouldn't you?

The population in 1964 is recorded as 695 million that's .4317% additional deaths added to the standard number shown in the trends.

In plain terms, his numbers made a claim that there were 45 deaths per 1000 which is indeed terrible.

The reality is there were 4.5 deaths per 1000.

Now go here: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004395.html and subtract the birth rate from the death rates.

Surprise!

 

[The Smoking Man]

I personally find it quite disgusting, that the chinese joke and always tend to take an extra inch from Japan. These two nations are very close geographically but they argue and boo over football (i am english) especially when it comes to such patriotism. I have never seen or heard of another country booing during another countries national anthem, this could have been a very major blow to the citizens of Japan those who were standing in the crowd and also those watchinng from their houses. Its appalling really...


Thankyou,

entropy+time=fun

Ummm ... English fans have been banned from going to the continent.

English fans have been caught with wood with spikes driven through one end to club opposing fans.

I believe we call them 'YOBS'.

You were saying?

 

[DM]

English fans have been caught with wood with spikes driven through one end to club opposing fans.

Indeed, in support to your point we only have to cite Turkey as the city of central havoc between English 'yobs' and other footbal fans.

 

[Dagenais]

Wow, I was just browsing this site to see if there was an interesting discussion about the Russian submarine crisis. Then, I see this post ressurected.

I have never seen or heard of another country booing during another countries national anthem

You're joking me right? This happens all the time in soccer. European fans have even been know to throw racist remarks at black players.

Quebec shouts and 'boos' the Star Spangled Banner at hockey games all the time.

 

[sid_galt]

I don't understand why people make such bold statements.

"some" Chinese have drained "a lot more" blood than people of "many other" countries. Unbelievable statement. Where did you go wrong? - nowhere. Where did you go right? - nowhere. What is your point? - Chinese are bad in the big scheme of things because you think so. Then why don't you just say so? Go do something instead of noncontributing the good of all and taking up bytes on a server.

My point was that in comparision to the West there are many more people out there in the East who have killed and slaughtered a lot more than the West ever has.

And the Chinese aren't bad because I think so. They are bad because history and reality say so.

 

[sid_galt]

The United Nations is a political venue for governing governments.

It is more of an organization that the leaders of a country have made a country join than a political venue for governing governments.

Each country has their own rules, regulations, practices and policies. This is no different than a protestants & catholics. All originated w/ white people from the same continent, using the same rule book, but completely different interpretations.

Rules of law should be based on principles and not on the arbitrary whims of the majority or the ruler or the dictator or the Senate. If the country violates that rights of man then it is morally wrong whether the majority agrees with it or not.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Rules of law should be based on principles and not on the arbitrary whims of the majority or the ruler or the dictator or the Senate. If the country violates that rights of man then it is morally wrong whether the majority agrees with it or not.

USA, Japan?

It IS a two way street.

 

[The Smoking Man]

And the Chinese aren't bad because I think so. They are bad because history and reality say so.

See previous post.

 

[Smurf]

My point was that in comparision to the West there are many more people out there in the East who have killed and slaughtered a lot more than the West ever has.

uhhhh... I disagree. WW1? Nazism? Fascism? Stalinism? The countless deaths European Imperialism caused. I don't know how historical you want to get, so I'll just include everything... The Spanish and English practically wiped out indigenous Americans who are only now beginning to numerally recover (only to have their culture destroyed). More than 20% of the world's population lived and died under the rule of the Roman Empire at it's height, and Rome didn't exactly work hard to keep people alive, or free.

 

[outsider]

My point was that in comparision to the West there are many more people out there in the East who have killed and slaughtered a lot more than the West ever has.

Unfortunately this thread was not a comparison between who has caused more bloodshed as that cannot be proven.

Your statement still holds no water, so even though I know what you are trying to say, you still don't make a point because your facts are not actual facts... so it's really a baseless opinion. (also remember that the east has a longer history than the west... and that many wars were fought in the east because the west has always tried to attack and conquer it's people... over, and over, and over again.)

And the Chinese aren't bad because I think so. They are bad because history and reality say so.

Hahaha... whatever you say sid...

Regardless, this thread is about conflicts between countries. The relevance of how a country governs it's own people is outside the boundaries of this topic.

I did not disagree with you about your feelings toward China (let's remember that China & Chinese don't exactly mean the same thing, as Chinese is an ethnicity of which many (including those who live in the country) do not agree with China as a government)... however your opinion in the scheme of this thread was unecessary.

I do not support the way China has handled it's own conflicts, however Canada does not often ridicule the American civil war, nor does the US talk about the Canadian battles between upper and lower Canada... to each country and within each family, there are conflicts... but that is FAMILY BUSINESS... The my way or the highway attitude is cause for war itself... so let's just recognize that in ourselves...

 

[The Smoking Man]

Canada does not often ridicule the American civil war, ...

They do have a penchant for mentioning that they burned the White House down during the 1812 war whenever they can... http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/mercer.asp

 

[Smurf]

They do have a penchant for mentioning that they burned the White House down during the 1812 war whenever they can... http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/mercer.asp

RICK MERCER FOR PM!

besides, that was an international war, doesn't disprove his point.

 

[outsider]

They do have a penchant for mentioning that they burned the White House down during the 1812 war whenever they can... http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/mercer.asp

well, 2 things in my defense:

1) I said "not often"... this whole Canadian pride thing only began since those "i am" Canadian beer commercials... and it's really not rampant among Canadians... i guess it falls under a new stereotype...

2) the war of 1812 was instigated by the US... Canada was pushed so they pushed back... aparently they pushed all the way to the white house and then turned back...

I wonder why no one has ever brought up the topic of manifest destiny?

 

[Anttech]

The Spanish and English practically wiped out indigenous Americans

hmmm... I think you mean early Americans, or Settlers, referring to English... I googled but could find any reference to the English wiping out Native Americans

 

[loseyourname]

hmmm... I think you mean early Americans, or Settlers, referring to English... I googled but could find any reference to the English wiping out Native Americans

They were English settlers. Or are you going to contend that the Turks responsible for the Armenian Genocide were really Armenians because they moved onto Armenian land after removing everyone?

As for the Spanish, the behavior of the Conquistadores, especially in wiping out two (count 'em) civilizations, in the Aztec and Inca, is pretty well documented. The Franciscans who followed them with their 'encomienda' system (we give you Jesus, you give us forced labor) were close behind in helping to wipe out the Natives of what is now the southwestern United States. Their missions still stand up and down the California coast - if you ever visit, I'll take you down to the one in San Francisco (names, incidentally, for St. Francis, the founder of the Franciscan order).

 

[Anttech]

They were English settlers. Or are you going to contend that the Turks responsible for the Armenian Genocide were really Armenians because they moved onto Armenian land after removing everyone?

Nope becuase I am greek! If that means anything to you. You can't compare the Turks Genocide against the Armnenians (And greeks) to that of the Native americans.. Although both are bad, the way it happened is too different to be used as an anaogue of one another. If it was the same, would America not be part of England?

I am not contesting the Spainish, just the English side of things! When do historians first recgonise "English settlers" being Americans?

Many Many Native Americans were killed by what you would call Americans not English!

if you ever visit, I'll take you down to the one in San Francisco (names, incidentally, for St. Francis, the founder of the Franciscan order).

I'm usually in Cali once a year to visit my brother ;-)

 

[The Smoking Man]

Back on Track

Japan is still http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050810/wl_asia_afp/wwiihistoryjapanwomen_050810180146 (Note: Lee Yong Su is 76 now ... Do the math ... it is 60 years since the END of the war which would have placed her at 16. Her rapes happened while she was much younger):

Former 'comfort women' demand more from Japan 60 years after WWII
Wed Aug 10, 2:01 PM ET

TOKYO (AFP) - Former "comfort women" and activists demonstrated in parts of Asia, demanding that Japan do more to compensate the former sex slaves for the imperial army before the 60th anniversary of the end of World War II.

A government-established but private fund has compensated hundreds of former sex slaves but Japan argues that bilateral treaties rule out any official payouts to individuals.

An activist group, Violence Against Women in War-Network Japan, said demonstrations were slated for 24 cities across the world Wednesday, mostly in Asia, but it did not immediately know how many went ahead.

"I am angry against both the Japanese and South Korean governments," said Lee Yong Su, 76, a former comfort woman from
South Korea who was among 200 people protesting outside parliament in Tokyo.

"The bilateral treaty they signed in 1965 sealed the question of compensation for individuals," she told AFP.

Historians say at least 200,000 young women, mostly Korean but also from Taiwan, China, the Philippines and Indonesia, were forced to serve as sex slaves in Japanese army brothels during the war.

A compensation fund was established in 1995 by a left-leaning Japanese government but it uses money collected by donations.

The fund is to be wound up in March 2007 after helping more than 360 women and determining that most other victims eligible for compensation will not come forward.

Many women remain too ashamed to discuss what happened to them. China has refused to take part in the program.

"Why should they stop paying?" Lee said. "The fund should keep paying as the victims are still suffering and they are getting older and older."

The fund provided compensation and medical benefits worth five million yen each (about 45,000 dollars) to victims from South Korea and Taiwan and 3.2 million yen to each Filipina victim. Dutch victims in what is now Indonesia were granted medical support only.

Kazuko Miyake, a Japanese activist supporting comfort women, said she had helped opposition lawmakers draft a bill to provide more compensation but it could not be considered before new elections were called on Monday.

"Our bill was abandoned as the lower house was dissolved, but we will never give up. We'll file it again in the next session," she said.

In Manila around 150 former sex slaves protested outside the Japanese embassy and near the presidential Malacanang palace Wednesday, demanding justice including an official apology.

Riot police forcibly pushed back the elderly comfort women who converged in an area near the palace, but no one was injured.

Another group of former sex slaves, wearing bright yellow dresses and headbands, trooped to the Japanese embassy and issued to a statement saying that 60 years after World War II, "justice continues to escape the victims."

Japan surrendered on August 15, 1945.

The former sex slaves carried slogans condeming Japan's war past. Some read: "Justice for all comfort women of World War II" and "Justice to all victims of military slavery."

On Jan. 4 1996, the U.N. Human Rights Commission released an official report, submitted by the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence against Women by Radhika Coomaraswamy, on the wartime Sex Slavery, report by http://www.icj.org/news.php3?id_article=3372〈=en .

The reports are founded on years investigation and recommends that Japanese government should assume state responsibility and

1. Acknowledge its violation of international law.
2. Make a public apology in writing to individual women.
3. Pay compensation to individual women.
4. Amending educational curricula to reflect true historical realities.
5. Full disclosure of related documents
6. Identify and punish, as far as possible, involved perpetrators​

In April 1996, the delegate to U.N. from China, for the first time, stated that Japan should pay state compensation to the victims of Sex Slavery by Japan during WWII.

Japan also argues that individual victim cannot sue a state, and also argued that China had voluntarily give up the right of reparation from Japan in 1972 when Beijing and Japan established diplomatic ties. Although the Joint Communiqué and the Treaty have waived the state's rights to war damages, neither has ever specifically surrendered the rights of any private claims by Chinese citizens.

In fact, the obligation of States and the rights of individuals with respect to the violation of human rights cannot, as a matter of international law, be given away or extinguished by governments through peace treaty, peace agreement, amnesty or by any other means. This has been repeatedly affirmed in numerous resolutions passed by the United Nations over the years. (e.g. UN Resolution E/CN.4/SUB.2/RES/1999/16)

Professor Etsuro Totsuka of Kobe University in Japan has pointed out the following in his article http://guywong.home.netcom.com/html/Etsuro.htm :

1. Art. 3 of the Convention (IV) Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, signed at the Hague, on 18 Oct. 1907 stipulates, "A belligerent party which violates the provisions of the said Regulations (i.e., the Regulations of Land Warfare annexed to the Convention) shall, if the case demands, be liable to pay compensation. It shall be responsible for all acts committed by persons forming part of its armed forces."

This article of the 1907 Hague Convention was understood to have been customary international law and it was succeeded by Art. 91 of the Additional Protocol to the 1949 Geneva Conventions. Japan acceded to it on Oct 21, 1953 and bound China in 1956. Therefore, It guarantees individual victims the right to compensation.

2. China is not a Party to the San Francisco Peace Treaty. Therefore, The treaty is not applicable to China.

3. The Treaty of Peace between Republic of China (i.e. Taiwan) and Japan of Apr 28, 1952 became null and void in accordance with the Sino-Japanese Joint Communique of Sept 29, 1972.

4. The Sino-Japanese Joint Communique includes no explicit provision, which waived the right of individual victims. The Japan Federation of Bar Associations had also made public its legal opinion that the Joint Communique did not waive the right to demand reparations for losses and damages sustained by Chinese nationals.

5. Art. 148 of the IV Geneva Convention reads "No High Contracting Party shall be allowed to absolve itself or any other High Contracting Party of any liability incurred by itself or by another High Contracting Party in respect of breaches referred to in the preceding Article." Therefore, if any military personnel commit war crimes of grave breaches under Art. 147, the responsible Parties could not be allowed to absolve itself from any liabilities including responsibility for compensation due to the crimes and other Parties shall not be allowed to relinquish the rights of the victims without compensation from the responsible state.

Also in the second sentence of Art. 7 of the IV Geneva Convention reads, "No special agreement shall adversely affect the situation of protected persons, as defined by the present Convention, nor restrict the rights which it confers upon them.” Therefore, the guarantee under Art. 148 cannot be adversely changed by any other international agreements.

Therefore, these 2 articles clearly prohibited Japan and China to absolve Japan of the individual rights to compensation under the said Joint Communique, in particular, if it comes to the issue of grave war crimes.

This is the country the USA was/is(?) backing for security council membership!?

 

[Daminc]

1. Acknowledge its violation of international law.
2. Make a public apology in writing to individual women.
3. Pay compensation to individual women.
4. Amending educational curricula to reflect true historical realities.
5. Full disclosure of related documents
6. Identify and punish, as far as possible, involved perpetrators

Out of these I can understand, and agree with, 2, 4 and 5, maybe 1 as well but I'm not sure of the law 60 odd years ago.

Germany butched a lot of Jewish people, bombed, shot, stabbed etc etc British, americans, Russians, french and countless of other nations and they're now our friends.

Japan used sex slaves. Ok, I sympathise with those women...Americans nuked thousands of civilians. Men, women, children all dead.

We have to learn from lessons in the past and move on. Not keep us chained to the past whilst nuturing enmities.

 

[Smurf]

Nope becuase I am greek! If that means anything to you. You can't compare the Turks Genocide against the Armnenians (And greeks) to that of the Native americans.. Although both are bad, the way it happened is too different to be used as an anaogue of one another. If it was the same, would America not be part of England?

They were until they had a rebellion you know. Isn't Armenia an independant country now too!? (I honestly don't know or care, so don't answer)

I am not contesting the Spainish, just the English side of things! When do historians first recgonise "English settlers" being Americans?

Many Many Native Americans were killed by what you would call Americans not English!

What-ever man. Westerners slaughtered native Americans and wiped out many cultures and civilizations and brought countless more to the brink of destruction and forced them to be integrated into our corrupt capitalistic system of greed.