News China-Japan Soccer Rivalry: World Cup Consequences?

[Orwell's Ghost]

Smoking, hope you don't take anything i have posted as slamming you or your country, for that is not my intent. The chinese have a very interesting history with its ups and downs. Tell me the truth, is Yao Ming really a clone? How did he get so damn tall?

If it upsets you that I see what I see, i'll tone down my posts a bit. I just don't feel communism is for me and many in my own country are a bit worried over China's growing influence and power while at the same time, China is very controlling of its people to a point I would consider unneccessary and counter-productive to a civilization.

-Orwell's Ghost

 

[outsider]

You are ruining the world's view of America. After reading your post targeted against TSM, I was really offended and sickened... I'm sorry TSM, this guy does not represent North American thought. I think you are wise enough to figure that out. As for Orwell's post, this is how I viewed it, and so Orwell's Ghost, this will be my gift to you:

Please let me apologize if I came off sounding like I want a world war to occur. That is not what I am hoping for.

for some strange reason, I don't believe you.

I am just concerned with the amount of heat I feel radiating off of china at the moment, from their massive buildup of weaponry to the enlargement of their naval force. Espionage and media contro, yeah, throw that it too.

fear mongering tactic.

I am glad to hear that china is such a capitalist powerhouse these days.

no you're not.

I am surprised the chinese would actually accept that label be utilized. They are not capitalist, but let's get to that later.

condescending; weak attempt at a cheap shot
[/quote]

They do want to control the means of production and manufacture. Maybe you could explain exactly how to interpret article 6 of the PRC constitution as it is a little hard to understand, me being a nieve caucasian and all. Article 6 The basis of the socialist economic system of the People's Republic of China is socialist public ownership of the means of production, namely, ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people.

you think you know it already... what's the point in anyone talking to you?

Now, I do see it says socialist public ownership of the means of production, but please explain the "ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people." portion of the article. What exactly is "socialist public ownership" and collective ownership by the whole people?

don't be an idiot.

Where's my dividend for all the cheap Walmart garbage?

you should ask Walmart as they are seriously involved in screwing middle America! and coming soon to more locations in Canada!

I haven't received a check, unless that means Chinese people.

i just wanted to emphasize who is speaking... *shaking head*

Another question I have regarding Article 9 "All mineral resources, waters, forests, mountains, grasslands, unreclaimed land, beaches, and other natural resources are owned by the state, that is, by the whole people, with the exception of the forest, mountains, grasslands and unreclaimed land and beaches that are owned by collectives in accordance with the law. The state ensures the rational use of natural resources and protects rare animals and plants. Appropriation or damaging natural resources by any organization or individual by whatever means is prohibited.

looks like someone was trying to start some type of business in China to take advantage of their cheap labor... i could be wrong

Are your house and land given to you for being a good boy? And taken from you when you're naughty? Please enlighten me.

One can only achieve one's own enlightmentment. Therefore anyone can try as hard as they can, with no guaranteed result... plus we have nothing to gain from it

Please let me know why speech is controlled in your country but a chinese general can spout off about nuking many US cities and he is not punished by his peers?

can you tell me why America is so F-ed Up? Clean up the mess you made first before criticising...

Sorry again for not mentioning the word communist yet.

no your not because you just did that on purpose

Oops, too late. Damn.

see?

Smurf, I thought you'd be proud of me.

No, didn't think.

Smoking Man, sorry for dropping the Marx name from nowhere, you got to throw him in the mix so as not to use the c word too much, it makes smurf very unsmurfy.

you sound like a bigger crazy than I sound there... now that's scary

Smoking Man, please let me know how your "mother land", oh damn, that's russia. Please let me know how china deals with those horrible, horibble cyber cafes. Damn those young kids and their desire to learn from somewhere that isn't yet censored by "Uncle Shek". It's ashame that the doors to some of these places seem to get locked when the place mysteriously starts on fire and incinerates everyone while they are locked inside. Don't you hate it when that happens.

more crazy talk...

(more crazy talk)

Again, for the record, I am not racist.

perhaps you don't think you are, but chances are: YOU ARE and don't know YOU ARE.

I am an anti-socialist, plain and simple. Whether they be american socialists/communists or wherever they may be lurking.

this sounds like it involves guns (hence my introduction shaming you and the need to apologize to the world on behalf of the Americans who do not share your view.)

I have many chinese friends (and japanese friends too).

and what do they think about Japan in WWII, and the Japanese Govt wanting to change the history books to reflect that the war crimes never happened?

Mr. Smoking Man, I must say I am amazed at the professional quality of some of your posts. If you are not using a team of subordinates to make your posts, I must say you truly are an impressive individual. You aren't Falun Gong are you? If you are, you better watch your back, the PRC will kill you first and identify your remains later.

well, I don't know about YOU, but TSM seems to have been around before these threads came about... YOU, however, sound like you may have a team.. or perhaps you lead a team...

Please explain why so many millions have died under communism in such a short amount of time? Sounds like such a great system of government. No corruption at the highest levels, utopia everywhere. Must be grand.

wrong discussion... you clearly make yourself a fool by pointing your keyboard at China... despite what you say, you are a chinese hater... your posts will no longer hold any credibility with me... sorry

 

[Smurf]

Mind if I answer some of this TSM?

I am glad to hear that china is such a capitalist powerhouse these days. I am surprised the chinese would actually accept that label be utilized.

Oh They don't. They still maintain the position that they are 'communist'. We call them capitalist because it's a hell of a lot more accurate than both Marxism and Maoism.

Are your house and land given to you for being a good boy? And taken from you when you're naughty? Please enlighten me.

Actually, interestingly enough they DO do that in Cuba. You have to 'apply' for a house when you move out of your parents house. And if you want to move you have to 'trade' with someone. Personally I think it sounds totally awsome.

Please let me know why speech is controlled in your country but a chinese general can spout off about nuking many US cities and he is not punished by his peers?

See your problem is you're still looking at China as Marxist. It isn't. It never really was either, Maoism wasn't even that close to Marxism in the first place. There's no real difference between a Chinese General saying "Nuke the US" and Bush saying "Axis of Evil"

Sorry again for not mentioning the word communist yet. Oops, too late. Damn. Smurf, I thought you'd be proud of me.

Really? That's interesting. You've only just joined, what made you draw that conclusion about me?

If china was really so "open", why do they censor all news, media, films, behavior, pasttimes and such. I'm not sure I could deal with that myself, but to each his own I guess. I like to read what I like, see what I want to see and learn what I want to learn. I assumed most people felt the same.

You also assumed that China's the only one.

Again, for the record, I am not racist. I am an anti-socialist, plain and simple.

I thought you were an Anti-Maoist.

I do not have many russian friends, but my last girlfriend was lithuanian, does that count? It is a russian state. Russian girls are definitely something else. Beautiful for sure. My wife wouldn't like me saying that though... Russian news is da bomb.

You know Russia's not communist either... right?

He's pretty much come clean on a lot of spicy issues and has went into detail about the communists' siege on america (a work in progress) such as infiltration of our media, our government, poisoning water sources and much much more.

Oh yeah? did he tell you how the Smurfs were communist propoganda and show pictures comparing Papa Smurf to Karl Marx and so on? Hate to break it to you, but the guy's probably a loonie left over from the good 'ol McCarthyist period.

Please explain, the pact to join in a fight against america. Or about the joint-military exercise of 5,000 troops. Yes, I did say joint exercise. This does appear that they are working with each other. I find it hard to believe that someone in the homeland has access to internet and isn't incinerated yet.

For the record, the only country in the world where the Internet is illegal.. is Burma. You're also not allowed to gather in groups larger than 10 and if you so much as know where the border is they tend to restrict your visit to a "supervised" tour... for your protection of course. Dangerous jungle out there.

If you are, you better watch your back, the PRC will kill you first and identify your remains later.

...? Yeah, the PRC has this bad habit of killing random people and THEN finding out who it was afterwards.

Please explain why so many millions have died under communism in such a short amount of time? Sounds like such a great system of government. No corruption at the highest levels, utopia everywhere. Must be grand.

Be carefull, a lot of figures about people dying under communism are sckewed. I think we addressed one main example earlier in the thread? Or was it another one...

 

[Smurf]

Outsider, let's not be so quick to judge. This kind of thought is not entirely uncommon in the states, and this guy seems to be willing to learn, we should try to show him where he's wrong. (oh yeah, because that's EXACTLY what I've been doing )

 

[Archon]

I am glad to hear that china is such a capitalist powerhouse these days. I am surprised the chinese would actually accept that label be utilized. They are not capitalist, but let's get to that later.

You didn't get to it. You cited their constitution, which, as I'm sure The Smoking Man can tell you, isn't exactly being followed verbatim. Do you have any information about actual conditions?

They do want to control the means of production and manufacture. Maybe you could explain exactly how to interpret article 6 of the PRC constitution as it is a little hard to understand, me being a nieve caucasian and all. Article 6 The basis of the socialist economic system of the People's Republic of China is socialist public ownership of the means of production, namely, ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people.

Now, I do see it says socialist public ownership of the means of production, but please explain the "ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people." portion of the article. What exactly is "socialist public ownership" and collective ownership by the whole people? Where's my dividend for all the cheap Walmart garbage? I haven't received a check, unless that means Chinese people.

Another question I have regarding Article 9 "All mineral resources, waters, forests, mountains, grasslands, unreclaimed land, beaches, and other natural resources are owned by the state, that is, by the whole people, with the exception of the forest, mountains, grasslands and unreclaimed land and beaches that are owned by collectives in accordance with the law. The state ensures the rational use of natural resources and protects rare animals and plants. Appropriation or damaging natural resources by any organization or individual by whatever means is prohibited.

You seem to be interpreting this as a desire to control the entire world. It seems to me that it only applies in China, which makes it no more unreasonable than the U.S. government preventing the sale of an American oil company to the Chinese: protection of valuable resources.

Please let me know why speech is controlled in your country but a chinese general can spout off about nuking many US cities and he is not punished by his peers?

Perhaps you can gain an insight into the reality of the "communist" government in China by studying this in more depth.

Sorry again for not mentioning the word communist yet. Oops, too late. Damn. Smurf, I thought you'd be proud of me. Smoking Man, sorry for dropping the Marx name from nowhere, you got to throw him in the mix so as not to use the c word too much, it makes smurf very unsmurfy.

What's the point of this?

Smoking Man, please let me know how your "mother land", oh damn, that's russia. Please let me know how china deals with those horrible, horibble cyber cafes. Damn those young kids and their desire to learn from somewhere that isn't yet censored by "Uncle Shek". It's ashame that the doors to some of these places seem to get locked when the place mysteriously starts on fire and incinerates everyone while they are locked inside. Don't you hate it when that happens.

And what's the point of this?

The chinese are great people, their leaders could use a hug though. I would like to say things seemed to have cooled down a bit since that whole tieneman thingy. Again, against those crazy kids.

What, and you're proud of every aspect of American history? It's not like slavery or the wholesale destruction of the Native American population weren't worse than Tiananmen Square.

If china was really so "open", why do they censor all news, media, films, behavior, pasttimes and such. I'm not sure I could deal with that myself, but to each his own I guess. I like to read what I like, see what I want to see and learn what I want to learn. I assumed most people felt the same.

To the best of my knowledge it's not nearly as extreme as you seem to think.
Perhaps you should educate yourself on the realities of Chinese life before implying that they enjoy a repressed existence.

Again, for the record, I am not racist. I am an anti-socialist, plain and simple. Whether they be american socialists/communists or wherever they may be lurking. I have many chinese friends (and japanese friends too).

Are you sure you aren't racist? You seem to have implied that the Chinese would enjoy living under a dictator. This is a racially-oriented insult.

I do not have many russian friends, but my last girlfriend was lithuanian, does that count? It is a russian state.

Ask her whether she would like to be called Russian. Then, run.

I would, however, like to point you to a great information source. Perhaps you have heard of him, Colonel Stanislav Lunev. He has great information although you probably won't find anything more recent than say 2001 or 2002. You see, he is the highest ranking soviet ever to defect from mother russia. He's pretty much come clean on a lot of spicy issues and has went into detail about the communists' siege on america (a work in progress) such as infiltration of our media, our government, poisoning water sources and much much more. I know, you said that russia and china are not helping out, but maybe that's because your newspaper isn't telling you anything about it? After all, it is censored. :)

I don't understand you. You obviously despise communism and socialism, and yet, you are more willing to trust a (supposed) defector from the most powerful "communist" country ever to have existed over your own government. How do you justify this?

Please explain, the pact to join in a fight against america. Or about the joint-military exercise of 5,000 troops. Yes, I did say joint exercise. This does appear that they are working with each other. I find it hard to believe that someone in the homeland has access to internet and isn't incinerated yet. Hmmm.

If by "the homeland" you mean China...uh...The Smoking Man? Maybe? He's in China and appears to be using the internet. He obviously hasn't been incinerated in any way.

Please explain why so many millions have died under communism in such a short amount of time? Sounds like such a great system of government. No corruption at the highest levels, utopia everywhere. Must be grand.

Millions of people died in the U.S. last year as well. Since China's population is so much greater than that of the U.S., maybe natural deaths account for much of it, right? For further discussion of this topic, there's a fairly recent thread in which this was dealt with.

 

[The Smoking Man]

You didn't get to it. You cited their constitution, which, as I'm sure The Smoking Man can tell you, isn't exactly being followed verbatim. Do you have any information about actual conditions?

I'm still trying to figure out where he got the impression that I am actually Chinese.

My only response to him thus far has included the words, "I live here".

To clarify my disposition, I have dual British/Canadian nationality.

I work as a consultant in China negotiating and educating ignorant westerners past their misconceptions about this country.

His basic 'misconception' is that the document he is using is still in force ... it isn't.

The rest of the reports he seems to have been quoting seem to be biased reporting on behalf of American besides his reference to the 'truth in media' site he mentions.

Let's go through a quick recap ... There are more socialist programs going on in America the rest of the world than there are in China.

The only thing 'workers' pay into here is the tax system. Now, pick up your latest pay stub and look at your deductions ... manditory and optional.

Internet ... The internet cafes that were closed for the most part actually defied zoning laws which states that they may not be installed within a certain distance to public schools. The problem is, a lot of the kids are cutting classes to play internet games.

Also, a good portion were shut down because they were not up to code. If you check the last major closure of illegal internet cafes, it happened after one of these places caught fire and the management had chained the fire doors closed.

You will also find that a good many are operating without business licenses and are not paying taxes.

The very fact that they had not enforced the law for the above three types of violation allowing the number of illegal places to open is testament to the fact that things are not as drachonian as he paints them to be.

Free speech - So we have a General in the Chinese army talking about a nuclear strike possibility as a private citizen and not as a government mouthpiece ... Ummm ... so what are you saying? That he is in some way more constrained than William G. "Jerry" Boykin over his 'my god was bigger than his god' statements?

Are you also saying that the Chinese government owns all the Sony, Mitac, Phillips, Siemens, etc. plants and that the sell off of SREs to private individuals over the years has all been a big lie?

Now you seem to have a problem with what happened in 1989 in Tiananmen. What are you looking for an apology? So when can we expect an apology from Dubya over the illegal war in Iraq that killed much more people and happened just two years ago? Tianmen was something that happened and was decided over a period of 5 days and was no doubt the wrong decision however people here have moved on. The last anniversary saw 16 people turn up in Tinanmen get detained for a few minutes and then they were released. Iraq, according to the Downing Street Memo, seems to have been in the planning for quite some time and resulted in the deaths of 10s of thousands.

While the method of suppression was a tad heavy handed, let's try and draw a parallel over what occurred and what drove the students to their protest ... the fall of the wall in Berlin.

Do you think what happened in the Soviet Union should have been repeated in China? Do you believe that 1.2 billion people in the landmass known as China would have dealt with the freedom any better than the Soviet States who experienced a collapsed econoimy, ethnic cleansing and Civil War? Is this what you wished for the Chinese people? Again, I see American calling for the deaths of millions at the cost of what they consider to be the 'freedoms' of people other than themselves.

All I can say about most of what you posted is 'Are you or have you ever been a supporter of Joe McCarthy'?

You sound like a complete idiot referring to documents severely dated and tainted by republican media who is having problems dealing with the fact that the 'commies' are less 'commie' than the USA and they have already overtaken you in production and world competition ... the same as the 'democratic' countries of Japan and Korea in the 1980's.

Now you are staring at the TWO countries of China and Vietnam who are placed 1 and two in terms of growth of success and wondering how something that goes completely against your beliefs can be so successful.

I truly am sorry for you.

 

[outsider]

You know... this thread has gone way off track... originally this was about soccer fans and booing... obviously it had to touch the Japan / China relations... we're now discussing whether China is a threat to the U.S. or vice versa... there is a discussion already about "U.S. poised to dominate the world"... perhaps that is a better field to play on?

Smurf, I find your posts very "insightful and penetrating" as another PFer might say...
but you are still a jerk... I know I'm the new guy here, so whatever... at least you know you're a jerk.

Yes, I agree that Orwell's Ghost does deserve a chance to learn... unfortunately, I got upset because I do not want the world to think that all Americans think the way he does... this is why there is war... hatemongering! I am only racist against racists.. and that includes racists of every color (including non-color / white). I just don't want to clean up his crap... he's instigating and i don't appreciate it.

I've traveled to many places in the world and it seems like most governments mistreat it's people. America is mistreating it's people by sending the to an unecessary war... debatable.. yes.. let's... somewhere else perhaps?

US, Canada, England, France, Japan and Australia (of the places I've been) seem to have their peoples "domesticated" to the point where they are really obedient. The system sort of works.

I have not been to any other countries and am not a scholar of politics, but I know what I see and I talk to real people everywhere I go.

Chinese people in my opinion are "trained" to say that they love their country... this is does not take away the fact that some of them live in an element of fear and insecurity. But I think that is their problem to deal with. This does not give anyone the right to judge their country. It's like a left hander telling a right hander that they are stupid, or weird, or wrong. Being "right handed" does not mean "right" in the context of "right and wrong".

Who are we, really, to judge another persons problems when we haven't dealt with our own?

 

[Smurf]

TSM, my cousin was just in shanghai for a number of months. When I spoke to her about it she cited a few examples of strong censorship that she considered ridiculous. For example, when the people she was staying with were watching television and the show was suddenly cut out (some sort of technical difficulty) just when a paticular part was coming on.. say... When a tank was about to drive over a person (no specific historical reference).

What's your response to that?

 

[Smurf]

Smurf, I find your posts very "insightful and penetrating" as another PFer might say...
but you are still a jerk... I know I'm the new guy here, so whatever... at least you know you're a jerk.

Hmm.. how to respond.
Thank you. Yeah, I know. And I appreciate you're honesty. Why, exactly.. ? Is it because of my cynical patronizing remarks?

Yes, I agree that Orwell's Ghost does deserve a chance to learn... unfortunately, I got upset because I do not want the world to think that all Americans think the way he does... this is why there is war... hatemongering! I am only racist against racists.. and that includes racists of every color (including non-color / white). I just don't want to clean up his crap... he's instigating and i don't appreciate it.

That's understandable, but we should always try to respond in a constructive fastion, regardless of what we'd like to do. Otherwise we're just as negative a force as they are.

US, Canada, England, France, Japan and Australia (of the places I've been) seem to have their peoples "domesticated" to the point where they are really obedient. The system sort of works.

Where have you been that they don't seem domesticated?

Who are we, really, to judge another persons problems when we haven't dealt with our own?

Human beings.

 

[Orwell's Ghost]

Outsider, Where did I attack smoking man? Sure, he is the person I was asking, but only because he is residing in a communist country. I asked some questions pertaining to some of the horrible abuses of power inflicted or so I thought by the cpc or other communist regimes. My government sure has it's share of abuses and I'd comment on any of them. Any abuse of another human being I see as wrong. You can attack me with your words, with no problems and when I ask questions or state things I have read, I'm seen as attacking. I guess America can be talked harshly about by anybody without any backlash, but let's not talk about China or what China may be up to or else you are labelled a chinese hater and a racist. Couldn't be further from the truth. If my questions were answered and I could tell it were true, I would be relieved. Nope, let's just call my questions "crazy" rather than give a response. I was only pointing out a specific incidents or things that are happening. I am not a socialist but that doesn't make me racist and I do not hate chinese people. I guess I have to say that again, huh. Where have I said i hate anybody. Just because I dissagree with the "communist" template that I think of due to Russia and Germany, doesn't mean I hate my fellow man.

America has it's problems and then some. Waco texas is one example of our government gone extremely wrong. Janet Reno and the Clinton administration caused that atrocity. Or Bosnia too.

Japan's non-apology for the horrible things they did to the Chinese is wrong, detestable and unacceptable, what can I do about that? I didn't know the extent of their atrocities until I cam to this thread. Disturbing tortures and very sick. My college japanese teacher seemed to have hard feelings toward one of the chinese students in my class and vice-versa. I didn't know why at the time, I didn't read about the sino-japanese wars until later. I always wanted the chinese people to be living under a free nation and do what they want.

TSM, as for the cyber cafes, that was a relevant question and I'm glad you answered it. It disturbed me to only get attacked and insulted for asking some serious questions. I was about to write off this website as hostile, but glad I didn't.

If I were really so heated and hateful, racist and looking for war, why am I not in the US military and only asking questions in a forum such as this. I would like to know answers to some of the questions I have had for years, that's all? Thank you TSM for clearing up the cyber cafe thing (and the outdated consitution). The papers I was reading only had little blurbs which seemed like they could have been concocted because there was so little written about it.

I blame American corporations and our unions mostly for our mess regarding our loss of manufacturing, I don't blame china directly, as they have low cost of production. I know the big corporations doing business in china are not owned by china. I was referring to the chinese owned corporations being partially controlled by the state, even if it is indirectly, or so I was told. Hutchinson was one of the chinese companies in particular I asked about.

The massive buildup of weapons by a communist country and purchases from russia I haven't been able to see as a good thing. (please set me straight) It scares me quite frankly, just as the US power may scare the Chinese. I don't know if they are scared of the US, I'm just generalizing. Japan had similar military buildup prior to wwii. I understand China has soverign rights like any country so militaries and navies are normal, but such a rapid growth scares me personally, that and the Chinese-Russian pact and joint exercise. Is it for Taiwan only (if the US were to defend Tiawan) or I have wondered if the US part of the equation separate from Taiwan, scary. Japan had similarly massive military buildup prior to wwii. We know how that turned out.

I understand it is "chik" nowadays in the US to put on your Chez Guevarra shirt, pop open a bottle of red star beer and watch the demise of america. Sorry if I do not do the same, for I love my friends, my family and my country, even if it is still young in the eyes of the world. It is horrible what the US did to the indians too. My wife is part american indian and my step-father was part american indian and was also a member of our military. Two different tribes though. Blackfoot (wife) and Chippewa (step father).

And actually, when I asked about the millions that have died under communism, I wasn't referring to the people that have died of old age and I wasn't even referring to china in that scenario as I haven't heard of any staggering mass murder in china. My discussion was about communism in general and Russian communism and German nazism are the main ones I was referring to over the past century. China has been an angel compared to the other two so far as deaths are concerned. Hitler was a socialist. National Socialist German Workers Party to be specific (which is where the term nazi comes from). I heard that Hitler and Stalin were cozy before Hitler double-crossed him and invaded russia. Stalin was hurt by this, or so I heard in some WWII documentary. If I am wrong, please correct me, don't attack me, for I am only relaying what I have heard, read or watched. Maybe I shouldn't lump all communist countries or ideologies together into one mold, but when you don't know of the difference between them, can I be blamed for asking? I've never taken communism 101 and I dropped my international politics class. This thread has been somewhat of a learning experience, actually.
I have heard the chinese schools teach the children negative things in their textbooks about the US. Is this true? This is not meant to be mean. Just another question to possibly debunk another thing I have heard.

I personally feel Clinton screwed us over real good. Dismantled our military and only spanked the mole(s) that was caught at our pentagon and then was sent home after being caught real quick-like with only a slap on the wrist. How nice of him. Would China do the same, or use him to get one of their own back. How about that nice lady Katrina Leung? Yes, America is no better. I'm sure we have many spies in China doing the same types of things. That's the world we live in I suppose.

I bid you good day, (or night, depending) and I thank you smurf for not just jumping on the "insult Orwell" bus. Actually, I've been wondering about China's intentions ever since they held our spy plane and military personnell in confinement back in 2001. I must admit, they were all treated well, cudos to China for that. I thought the crap was going to hit the fan that day.

I am not the bush supporter you think I am. Bush is a lousy commander in chief and Iraq may just be one of the biggest blunders ever. And Outsider, sorry you feel that way about me. Name a person I have attacked other than the what I considered an oppressive, abusive government. My comments have been focused primarily on the communist regimes that have killed millions, for that is all I really know of communism is the horror associated with it. I have tried to understand by reading the manifesto, but that doesn't help much as it is a tad outdated. The US, I fear has many problems that only we can fix ourselves, trial and error at the voting box.

And Outsider, some of the context of what I was saying was meant to be funny, or at least I was attempting humor often. Like when I mentioned Smurf would be proud I hadn't mentioned the c word. Yes, observant you are, I did mean to write it. Don't take everything so seriously, I don't, NORMALLY. :)

 

[The Smoking Man]

TSM, my cousin was just in shanghai for a number of months. When I spoke to her about it she cited a few examples of strong censorship that she considered ridiculous. For example, when the people she was staying with were watching television and the show was suddenly cut out (some sort of technical difficulty) just when a paticular part was coming on.. say... When a tank was about to drive over a person (no specific historical reference).

What's your response to that?

It's a crock.

Unless she can understand Chinese, why would the people she was 'staying with' be sitting there watching a 'TV show' she couldn't understand?

Do you think that ANYBODY would be this unfeeling as to throw on a TV show their guest couldn't understand and then ignore them?

You will find that most of the people watch DVDs and they are neither censored nor Government controled.

In fact, I have had movies prior to their western release with less censorship than the western theatre releases..

 

[The Smoking Man]

Chinese people in my opinion are "trained" to say that they love their country... this is does not take away the fact that some of them live in an element of fear and insecurity. But I think that is their problem to deal with. This does not give anyone the right to judge their country. It's like a left hander telling a right hander that they are stupid, or weird, or wrong. Being "right handed" does not mean "right" in the context of "right and wrong".

Who are we, really, to judge another persons problems when we haven't dealt with our own?

Yup.

I understand it is "chik" nowadays in the US to put on your Chez Guevarra shirt, pop open a bottle of red star beer and watch the demise of america. Sorry if I do not do the same, for I love my friends, my family and my country, even if it is still young in the eyes of the world. It is horrible what the US did to the indians too. My wife is part american indian and my step-father was part american indian and was also a member of our military. Two different tribes though. Blackfoot (wife) and Chippewa (step father).

See above.

Love and hate DO seem to be taught.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I bid you good day, (or night, depending) and I thank you smurf for not just jumping on the "insult Orwell" bus. Actually, I've been wondering about China's intentions ever since they held our spy plane and military personnell in confinement back in 2001. I must admit, they were all treated well, cudos to China for that. I thought the crap was going to hit the fan that day.

Why? Did you think they would treat them like the Americans would and spirit them off to an island for torture somewhere?

Maybe you missed when the Chines embassy was bombed by the USA too and the reaction was far less than what the USA normally responds with?

 

[The Smoking Man]

The massive buildup of weapons by a communist country and purchases from russia I haven't been able to see as a good thing. (please set me straight) It scares me quite frankly, just as the US power may scare the Chinese. I don't know if they are scared of the US, I'm just generalizing. Japan had similar military buildup prior to wwii. I understand China has soverign rights like any country so militaries and navies are normal, but such a rapid growth scares me personally, that and the Chinese-Russian pact and joint exercise. Is it for Taiwan only (if the US were to defend Tiawan) or I have wondered if the US part of the equation separate from Taiwan, scary. Japan had similarly massive military buildup prior to wwii. We know how that turned out.

You answered your own question.

Fear.

This was something you should take note of in regard to the US actions in Iraq relative to the UN.

The UN was created to do away with the need for war. For the most part, it has done a fair job in removing the need by providing a forum for debate and for the passage of resolutions and imposing sanctions.

The USA seems to be opting out of these options and is going directly to armed conflict.

How do you think these actions are perceived even by your allies?

China has been blocked from purchasing arms based on an internal issue ... Tiananmen.

The USA has armed Taiwan to the teeth and has threatened China directly.

China isn't expecting to start a war. They are expecting to ANSWER to an attack which, by the actions of America in opting out of the UN process has become a real issue in the rest of the world.

Why do you think Iran is persuing the bomb?

Why is Pakistan persuing Nuclear Cruise?

Even those states that were previously a part of the coalition of the willing have been threatened and their personal 'space attacked or violated'. Think CIA ... think Italy.

You want a safe world? ... Put it back into your pants.

 

[The Smoking Man]

China has been an angel compared to the other two so far as deaths are concerned. Hitler was a socialist. National Socialist German Workers Party to be specific (which is where the term nazi comes from). I heard that Hitler and Stalin were cozy before Hitler double-crossed him and invaded russia. Stalin was hurt by this, or so I heard in some WWII documentary. If I am wrong, please correct me, don't attack me, for I am only relaying what I have heard, read or watched. Maybe I shouldn't lump all communist countries or ideologies together into one mold, but when you don't know of the difference between them, can I be blamed for asking? I've never taken communism 101 and I dropped my international politics class. This thread has been somewhat of a learning experience, actually.

One of your major problems is that you are fond of labels and what people call themselves.

Do you know where Greenland got its name?

So tell me it's green.

So if you read the 'manifesto' where does it mention the words 'Gulag', or mass murder?

Maybe they should call themselves 'the green party'?

 

[The Smoking Man]

Chinese people in my opinion are "trained" to say that they love their country... this is does not take away the fact that some of them live in an element of fear and insecurity. But I think that is their problem to deal with. This does not give anyone the right to judge their country. It's like a left hander telling a right hander that they are stupid, or weird, or wrong. Being "right handed" does not mean "right" in the context of "right and wrong".

I've been visiting here since '97 and living here for two years now.

The people here are least fearful of their government than any I have known.

The police don't even carry guns.

High security bank vans have security guards armed with rubber bullets and beanbag guns.

Ecconomically, the government hardly interferes with business as long as your taxes are paid.

Tell me what you see to fear here. I even feel nothing about walking the streets of Shanghai with a months wages in my pocket at midnight. Can you say the same for New York?

 

[Smurf]

My discussion was about communism in general and Russian communism and German nazism are the main ones I was referring to over the past century.

Right, because they're exactly the same.

Hitler was a socialist. National Socialist German Workers Party to be specific (which is where the term nazi comes from). I heard that Hitler and Stalin were cozy before Hitler double-crossed him and invaded russia. Stalin was hurt by this, or so I heard in some WWII documentary. If I am wrong, please correct me, don't attack me, for I am only relaying what I have heard, read or watched. This thread has been somewhat of a learning experience, actually.

Okay Orwell. You just touched on my sweet spot, and you're rubbing it the wrong way. teeheehee

In Short: Yes, you're wrong. Very wrong.

Longer: Hitler was not socialist, even by the diluted western political meaning of the term, he was certainly not Marxist by a long shot. If you've read any of Hitler's publications, even Mein Kampf than you'll know that Hitler had fully planned to invade the soviet union as part of Lebensraum. Hitler and Stalin were worst enemies. When they signed a non-aggression pact in 1939 it completely shocked the world, but as we now know, it broke down in under a year and half when Hitler invaded the Soviet Union. I don't know what you mean by 'Stalin was hurt by this' but the first few months of the war were very favorable for the Germans, until the battle of Stalingrad was won by the Russians and the Winter set in. After that the Germans were continuously being pushed back.

Hitler's use of the word socialist in his party name was entirely propoganda to gain support from the center-lefties who didn't quite want to vote communist. He promised quite a few socialist institutions that he never implemented and when his only socialist minister started bickering about it, he was killed during the night of the long knives.

You should check out our ww2 thread where me and boys are making historical commentary.

Maybe I shouldn't lump all communist countries or ideologies together into one mold, but when you don't know of the difference between them, can I be blamed for asking? I've never taken communism 101 and I dropped my international politics class.

OKAY! CRASH COURSE IN COMMUNISM!

1. You first have to realize that Communism is extremely controversial and everyone has their own opinion on what it is and should be. Also, every communist political leader in history has left behing his own distinct form of Communism, each quite different from each other and from their common route: Marxism.

2. Socialism, in Marxist theory, is an economic and political system where most of the state power and production is controlled by popular collectives. In Marxist theory a state is supposed to evolve into a Socialist state and then from socialist into a communist state (utopia). Socialism is not Communism. Socialism has stayed a lot more true to it's original Marxist ideals than the term Communism, which has been highjacked time and time again so that these dictators can use it to gain support for their revolutions. However, that's not to say that socialism isn't a loaded term as many a times that term has been used to describe something non-Marxist as well.

Additional Reading:
Marxism
Leninism
Stalinism
Trotskyism
Maoism
Socialism
Ahhh, just for the sake of it.
Green Anarchism

There, that should keep you busy for a while. Get to learning 'bout good 'ol communism boy!

 

[The Smoking Man]

Right, because they're exactly the same.Okay Orwell. You just touched on my sweet spot, and you're rubbing it the wrong way. teeheehee

Oh, lay off him ... I think he still believs that Christians follow the teachings of Christ too.

Like ... how naive can you be?

 

[Smurf]

He Called Hitler Socialist! And it wasn't in the I-dare-you sort of way people usually say it just to piss socialists off.

 

[selfAdjoint]

He Called Hitler Socialist! And it wasn't in the I-dare-you sort of way people usually say it just to piss socialists off.

Hitler called his party the National Socialists. "Nazi" is just a shortened form of the German words for that. The fact that real historical cases don't conform to the pristine definitions in your head shouldn't caause you frenzy, but it should cause you to examine your preconceptions.

 

[Archon]

Hitler called his party the National Socialists. "Nazi" is just a shortened form of the German words for that. The fact that real historical cases don't conform to the pristine definitions in your head shouldn't caause you frenzy, but it should cause you to examine your preconceptions.

If by preconceptions you mean his belief in the fact that Hitler wasn't a socialist in any meaningful sense of the word, then I don't see a problem. If Hitler doesn't fit the definition of "socialist," then he wasn't a socialist. I could just as easily call Bush a socialist, because the U.S. government does sponser certain socialistic programs. He doesn't quite fit the defintion, but close enough, right?

 

[The Smoking Man]

He Called Hitler Socialist! And it wasn't in the I-dare-you sort of way people usually say it just to piss socialists off.

Yeah ... well like I said earlier, it is easier to point out that there are more 'socialist programs' in western democratic countries than there are in 'communist nations'.

For example ... when Nike opens a sweat shop in some province in China, do you think the people there have the right to a 'Union'?

If you're sick in China, do you have the right to 'Universal Health Care'?

If you lose your job, are you entitled to state support?

NOPE, Nope and Nope.

This is in fact why it is that the USA builds factories here.

They are actually AVOIDING social programs that cut into the bottom line.

Other things are ... Building regs, zoning, reduced controls such as EPA guidlines, avoiding Chinese import tarriffs (Taxation that is paid to the Chinese govt.) etc.

America is more socialist than Nazi Germany ever was and China IS.

 

[Smurf]

Hitler called his party the National Socialists. "Nazi" is just a shortened form of the German words for that. The fact that real historical cases don't conform to the pristine definitions in your head shouldn't caause you frenzy, but it should cause you to examine your preconceptions.

Actually Hitler's party was "National Socialist German Workers Party" (NSDAP) and he didn't take any part in naming it at all.

Hitler first discovered the party when he was still a Corporal in the Army. Army intelligence sent him to investiage the Actions of the German Workers Party (DAP), but he was impressed by the party and joined as member 555 (which is pretty funny if you consider the superstition about 666). Hitler wanted to rename the party and proposed "Social Revolutionary Party", but this was early and the party still had it's own goals outside of supporting Hitler as the Fuhrer. They insisted they continue to follow the path of the Austrian party Deutsche Nationalsozialistische Arbeiterpartei after whom they were modeled, so they renamed themselves National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP) at the suggestion of a Rudolf Jung, an Austrian Marxist who was also an influencial member of their Austrian counterpart. He died of starvation in Prague's Pankrác prison.

'Nazi' started as slang. It came about from the first two syllables of Nationalsozialist but spelled <zi> because the syllable <ti> is pernounced <tsi> and people thought it looked cooler if you spelled it with a <z>

 

[selfAdjoint]

Actually Hitler's party was "National Socialist German Workers Party" (NSDAP) and didn't take any part in naming it at all.

Hitler first discovered the party when he was still a Corporal in the Army. Army intelligence sent him to investiage the Actions of the German Workers Party (DAP), but he was impressed by the party and joined as member 555 (which is pretty funny if you consider the superstition about 666). Hitler wanted to rename the party and proposed "Social Revolutionary Party", but this was early and the party still had it's own goals outside of supporting Hitler as the Fuhrer. They insisted they continue to follow the path of the Austrian party Deutsche Nationalsozialistische Arbeiterpartei after whom they were modeled, so they renamed themselves National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP) at the suggestion of a Rudolf Jung, an Austrian Marxist who was also an influencial member of their Austrian counterpart. He died of starvation in Prague's Pankrác prison.

'Nazi' started as slang. It came about from the first two syllables of Nationalsozialist but spelled <zi> because the syllable <ti> is pernounced <tsi> and people thought it looked cooler if you spelled it with a <z>

I stand corrected. And did Hitler then, after the night of the long knives, when he got rid of a lot of the old party members, then change the name of the party because he didn't want to be identified as a socialist?

 

[The Smoking Man]

I stand corrected. And did Hitler then, after the night of the long knives, when he got rid of a lot of the old party members, then change the name of the party because he didn't want to be identified as a socialist?

LOL ... Did Tony Blair change the name of the british Labour party when he made it conservative? Nope ... Just stuck a 'new' in front of it.

 

[Smurf]

I stand corrected. And did Hitler then, after the night of the long knives, when he got rid of a lot of the old party members, then change the name of the party because he didn't want to be identified as a socialist?

No, the National Socialist German Workers Party kept the name through it's entire life. But "Nazi" was inducted as a shorter form of the word, which was used much more frequently.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Just to reinforce the idea that this is NOT just a 'http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050814/ap_on_re_as/asia_liberation_day associated with this article to see how Japanese ultra rightists celebrate 'surrender'.

Asia Marks Anniversary of Japan Surrender

By HANS GREIMEL, Associated Press Writer
15/08/2005

Still stinging with anger and sorrow, Asians on Sunday marked the 60th anniversary of Japan's World War II surrender by honoring their dead, burning Rising Sun flags and demanding compensation amid rekindled tensions over Japanese abuses.

The occasion inspired a rare joint commemoration by North Korea and South Korea, and spurred protesters in Hong Kong to burn Japan's flag and march on Tokyo's consulate chanting "Down with Japanese imperialism!"

In the Philippines, elderly women once forced to act as sex slaves for Japanese soldiers renewed demands for compensation and apologies. Former Australian prisoners of war returned to the Thai jungles where they labored under brutal conditions to build the notorious Death Railway.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050814/ap_on_re_as/japan_war_shrine

Japan PM Warned Not to Visit War Shrine

By HANS GREIMEL, Associated Press WriterSun Aug 14, 4:13 PM ET

A key ally of Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi warned the leader Sunday not to visit a shrine that honors Japan's 2.4 million war dead, saying it would further undermine Japan's fragile ruling coalition as it heads into nationwide elections.

The caution came as a former Japanese premier and the country's current economy and trade minister worshipped at Tokyo's Yasukuni Shrine, amid mounting speculation Koizumi will also pray there as early as Monday to mark the 60th anniversary of Japan's surrender in World War II. A visit by Koizumi would almost certainly enrage China and South Korea, as convicted war criminals are among those honored at the shrine.

Further visits will only damage ties between Koizumi's Liberal Democratic Party and its ruling coalition partner, the New Komeito Party, especially in the run up to nationwide ballots on Sept. 11, New Komeito head Takenori Kanzaki warned Sunday.

"The LDP and New Komeito increasingly feel we should go for the majority. But if Koizumi goes, it will dampen that spirit," Kanzaki said on TV Asahi's Sunday Project news talk show. "It can't have good results for our campaign coordination."

Yasukuni honors Japan's deaths in wars from the late 1800s until 1945. But the shrine also lists among its "deities" the names of executed World War II criminals, such as wartime Prime Minister Hideki Tojo, and many in Asia believe the memorial glorifies Tokyo's imperialist past.

Koizumi has pledged to make annual visits to the shrine and has been there four times since becoming prime minister in April 2001. His last visit was in January 2004, and many Japanese officials, including Cabinet members, were expected to pay respects Monday.

Thehe Japanese state that 'the Shrine is intended to honour the Japanese killed in battle'.

1068 of the people enshrined there were executed after the war for crimes against humanity.

They were NOT killed in battle.

Where war criminals are venerated

Tuesday, January 14, 2003 Posted: 12:08 AM EST (0508 GMT)

The Yasukuni Shrine is dedicated to about 2.5 million people who have died in Japan's conflicts between 1853 and 1945.

Their names are inscribed in the shrine's Book of Souls, and venerated as "gunshin", or war gods.

In 1978, 1,068 convicted war criminals, among them executed wartime prime minister Hideki Tojo and 13 other Class A war criminals, were secretly enshrined there.

The shrine's authorities are reluctant to accept the verdict of war crimes tribunals, and history.

"War is a really tragic thing to happen, but it was necessary in order for us to protect the independence of Japan and to prosper together with Asian neighbors," explains a pamphlet published by the shrine, aimed at children.

Referring to the convicted war criminals, the pamphlet says: "Some 1,068 people, who were wrongly accused as war criminals by the Allied court, were enshrined here."
...
"Owing to the meritorious services of the spirits of the deities worshipped, the nation enjoys peace and security," the shrine explains on its website.

It's sick.

 

[outsider]

I can see why China is so upset. I don't think the Nazis would've gotten away with this.

"War is a really tragic thing to happen, but it was necessary in order for us to protect the independence of Japan and to prosper together with Asian neighbors," explains a pamphlet published by the shrine, aimed at children.

Referring to the convicted war criminals, the pamphlet says: "Some 1,068 people, who were wrongly accused as war criminals by the Allied court, were enshrined here."

 

[The Smoking Man]

Here is an excellent example of the Japanese status of 'http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050823/wl_asia_afp/japanchinawar_050823074803 '

For further background on the 'contest':

The Nanjing "Murder Race"


Extracts from Harold Timperley's What War Means, London: V.Gollancz (1968)

________________________________________

On December 7, 1937, the Japan advertiser, an American-owned and edited English-language daily paper in Tokyo, published the following item:

SUB-LIEUTENANTS IN RACE
TO FELL 100 CHINESE
RUNNING CLOSE CONTEST

Sub-lieutenant Toshiaki Mukai and Sub-lieutenant Takeshi Noda, both of the Katagiri unit at Kuyung, in a friendly contest to see which of them will first fell 100 Chinese in individual sword combat before the Japanese forces completely occupy Nanking, are well in the final phase of their race, running almost neck to neck. On Sunday when their unit was fighting outside Kuyung, the "score", according to the Asahi, was: Sub-lieutenant Mukai, 89, and Sub-lieutenant Noda, 78.

On December 14, 1937, the same paper published the following additional report:

CONTEST TO KILL FIRST 100 CHINESE
WITH SWORD EXTENDED WHEN BOTH
FIGHTERS EXCEED MARK

The winner of the competition between Sub-lieutenant Toshiaki Mukai and Sub-lieutenant Iwao Noda to see who would be the first to kill 100 Chinese with his Yamato sword has not been decided, the Nichi Nichi reports from the slopes of Purple Mountain, outside Nanking. Mukai has a score of 106 and his rival has dispatched 105 men, but the two contestants have found it impossible to determine which passed the 100 mark first. Instead of settling it with a discussion, they are going to extend the goal by 50.

Mukai's blade was slightly damaged in the competition. He explained that this was the result of cutting a Chinese in half, helmet and all. The contest was "fun", he declared, and he thought it a good thing that both men had gone over the 100 mark without knowing that the other had done so.

Early Saturday morning, when the Nichi Nichi man interviewed the Sub-lieutenant at a point overlooking Dr. Sun Yat-sen's tomb, another Japanese unit set fire to the slopes of Purple Mountain in an attempt to drive out the Chinese troops. The action also smoked out Sub-lieutenant Mukai and his unit, and the men stood idly by while bullets passed overhead.

"Not a shot hits me while I am holding this sword on my shoulder", he explained confidently.

C h i n a N e w s D i g e s t
Europe/Pacific Regional News (CND-EP, No. EP97-015) August 1, 1997

 

[Daminc]

Bl**dy hell!