News China-Japan Soccer Rivalry: World Cup Consequences?

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Chinese fans displayed hostility towards the Japanese soccer team during a recent tournament, reflecting long-standing resentment over Japan's wartime actions in China. Despite the negative atmosphere, Japan's sports media celebrated the team's victory, suggesting they overcame significant adversity. The discussion highlights the deep-rooted animosity between the two nations, with some arguing that current generations should not bear the blame for historical actions. The thread also touches on broader themes of national grievances and the challenges of reconciliation, noting that similar tensions exist in other historical contexts. Overall, the situation raises questions about how sports can exacerbate or reflect historical animosities.
  • #61
Smurf said:
What-ever man. Westerners slaughtered native Americans and wiped out many cultures and civilizations and brought countless more to the brink of destruction and forced them to be integrated into our corrupt capitalistic system of greed.

Smurf brings up a good point...
I hope these comments do not polarize or alienate people, because this is not my intention at all; however, western culture (capitalism) has caused many wars and "peaceful" takeovers throughout the world.

Somehow in history books these wars and takeovers are regarded as "conquests" or "discoveries" or "missions". :devil:
 
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  • #62
outsider said:
well, 2 things in my defense:

1) I said "not often"... this whole Canadian pride thing only began since those "i am" Canadian beer commercials... and it's really not rampant among Canadians... i guess it falls under a new stereotype...
Yes, yes and yes. It's really only the rednecky types that are all patriotic. You know, Albertans and Albertan wanna-be's. Alberta is like a mild version of Texas.
2) the war of 1812 was instigated by the US... Canada was pushed so they pushed back... aparently they pushed all the way to the white house and then turned back...
Actually we just sent a few ships there, burnt it down... and left. The actual front line was quite a bit farther north than Washington DC, which is why it was so sparsly defended (really not a good reason considering they were fighting the British *Navy* - they should've seen it coming)
I wonder why no one has ever brought up the topic of manifest destiny?
What does that have to do with it?
 
  • #63
They were until they had a rebellion you know. Isn't Armenia an independent country now too!? (I honestly don't know or care, so don't answer)

If you don't care, don't post! Armenia is a country, however that's not the point... the young turks systematically rounded up all Christians and tried to kill them, to create a pure Islamic state... Which is nothing like what happened in America, thus I stated you can't compare the two

What-ever man. Westerners slaughtered native Americans and wiped out many cultures and civilizations and brought countless more to the brink of destruction and forced them to be integrated into our corrupt capitalistic system of greed.

Doesnt answer my question to weather the "English" wiped out Native Americans or the "Americans" did... I would say the Americans did, the redcoats of England may have battled with the Natives, but didnt systematically wipe them out like the American Settlers. But I honestly don’t know enough about that
 
  • #64
Daminc said:
Out of these I can understand, and agree with, 2, 4 and 5, maybe 1 as well but I'm not sure of the law 60 odd years ago.

Germany butched a lot of Jewish people, bombed, shot, stabbed etc etc British, americans, Russians, french and countless of other nations and they're now our friends.

Japan used sex slaves. Ok, I sympathise with those women...Americans nuked thousands of civilians. Men, women, children all dead.

We have to learn from lessons in the past and move on. Not keep us chained to the past whilst nuturing enmities.
D. A lot of what you have observed in Germany was and IS being settled.

German companies have paid for slave labour. Monies have been paid back artwork returned and looted banks had their monies returned.

None of this has ever happened with Japan.

http://www.skycitygallery.com/japan/japan.html#compare

This is a table indicating First the German response to the tasks listed and then the Japanese:

1. Sincere soul searching Yes No
2. Confession of war crimes Yes No
3. Official true apology Yes No
4. Compensate victims Yes No
5. Compensate Slave Laborers Yes No
6. Compensate Sex Slaves N/A No
7. Compensate WMD Biological victims Yes No
8. Compensate WMD Chemical victims Yes No
9. Identify war criminals Yes No
10. Punish war criminals Yes No
11. Punish WMD Biological criminals Yes No
12. Punish WMD Chemical criminals Yes No
13. Punish WMD Drug criminals N/A No
14. Punish "Three All" criminals N/A No
15. Punish "Strict Disposal" criminals N/A No
16. Punish "Compulsory Seizure" criminals N/A No
17. Punish Sex Slave Rapists N/A No
18. Punish Slavery criminals Yes No
19. Open war time records Yes No
20. Return looted properties Yes No
21. Include history in school textbook Yes No
22. Include history in museum Yes No
23. Tribute to victims Yes No
24. Build Memorial for victims Yes No
25. Set Remembrance day for victims Yes No
26. Condemn war crimes Yes No
27. Suppress Militarism Yes No
28. Cover-up war crimes No YES
29. Purported as victims instead of aggressors No YES
30. Worship war Criminals No YES
31. Adopt Militarism symbol as National Anthem, Flag and Holiday No YES
* No : None, little, un-official, or in-sufficient
Also, remember that people like Ishii killed 12 times the number of people than Josef Mengele.

Oh, and the law we were dealing with 60 years ago ... the Geneva Conventions. You can still read them all on the International Red Cross site.

You can also read the treaty from 1928 baning the use of bio-chem weapons and then try to reconcile this: http://guywong.home.netcom.com/html/terror.htm
 
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  • #65
I have to admit I balked at the asterik there. 'in-sufficient'?

In-sufficient to who(m)?
 
  • #66
Thanks for the info TSM.

It doesn't really change my position though.

"the Geneva Conventions." did Japan sign up to the conventions? (that's what I was wondering).

"You can also read the treaty from 1928 baning the use of bio-chem weapons and then try to reconcile this:"
I don't know about other countries but I believe the Americans used Chemical and Biological warfare agents in Vietnam and haven't been procecuted for 'war-crimes'.

I'm not condoning Japans stance in this but I also understand that the situation isn't black or white.

I'm curious, did American pay compensation to Japan for the two nuclear strikes?

In War we do bad things, we kill, sabotage, poison, starve, blow-up, crush, stab the 'enemy' (by the way the 'enemy' is who our bosses say it is on both sides). Arguing about the rules that state that you have to kill the enemy in a nice way is just plain stupid.

War is not nice. Bad things happen. All sides are equally resonsible for doing bad things. The only way it will stop is to not have war...which isn't going to happen.
 
  • #67
Daminc said:
I'm curious, did American pay compensation to Japan for the two nuclear strikes?
I'm sure the Marhsall plan made up for it.

In War we do bad things, we kill, sabotage, poison, starve, blow-up, crush, stab the 'enemy' (by the way the 'enemy' is who our bosses say it is on both sides). Arguing about the rules that state that you have to kill the enemy in a nice way is just plain stupid.
No, it's a step towards a more humane world.
 
  • #68
No, it's a step towards a more humane world.
The treatment of prisoners I agree with. You should always respect your opponent and treat him/her accordingly.

However, using an artilery shell that fragments into pieces that shred people (some get killed, some don't) isn't humane no matter how you spin it. Nothing about war is humane so I'll say again: "Arguing about the rules that state that you have to kill the enemy in a nice way is just plain stupid."
 
  • #69
Arguing about the rules that state that you have to kill the enemy in a nice way is just plain stupid

What about land mines? These things should be argued about, they cause more death after qa war has finnished than durring that war!
 
  • #70
Landmines ARE bad but mainly because they can be used indescriminately and are not cleaned up afterwards.

As a strategic tool they are highly effective however they are too easily misused and I agree the ban should be enforced more.
 
  • #71
Daminc said:
"Arguing about the rules that state that you have to kill the enemy in a nice way is just plain stupid."
No it's not. What about weapons that increase suffering without increasing efficiency (i.e. serrated blades, in the rules of war since ww1) or weapons that have a high chance of inflicting civilian casualties as well (Chem, Bio, Nuke)?

On what grounds do you call these "stupid"?
 
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  • #72
In the 'liberation' of Iraq how many civilians have died because of weapons that are allowed within the Geneva Convention. How many have been permantly injured/maimed? e.g. bombs and rifles?

One of the stated missions of changing from 7.62 to 5.56 was for the purpose to seriously injure the enemy instead of killing them with the logic of taking more people out of the combat area (1 injured, 2 to carry, 1 medic to treat, medicine, fuel etc). It wasn't about taking the enemy out 'humanely' it was about draining the enemies resources.

One of the points I was trying to make is that there is no humane way to kill another human being. Sure, there are degrees of suffering but that inevitable regardless of any Convention.

In terms of priorities in a field of war a CO would like to win a war without any conflict.
If a conflict is inevitable then the priority is defeating the enemy as quickly as possible with the least amount of casualties of those under his/her command. That's it.

The Convention is primarily for the politicians.

Inflicting civilian casualties is highly counter productive and unnecessary and that is why, at least from my experience in the British Army, everything is done to minimise this occurring. However, if there is an enemy contact then they are to be passified as quickly and efficiently as possible. If they surrender then they are no longer a threat to the troops and are treated accordingly.

At no point is the Geneva Convention quoted. They just do the job they're trained for as best they can. It's the politicians and the people who are not in the line of fire and who are never likely to be in that circumstance who have the luxury of discussing ways to kill someone in a nice and 'non-messy' manner.

That's why I call it "stupid".
 
  • #73
yeh well not every army is as well trained as the brittish army...

One of the points I was trying to make is that there is no humane way to kill another human being. Sure, there are degrees of suffering but that inevitable regardless of any Convention.

this is counter-intuative? IMHO The more suffering the more inhumane the death, right?
 
  • #74
Daminc said:
The treatment of prisoners I agree with. You should always respect your opponent and treat him/her accordingly.

However, using an artilery shell that fragments into pieces that shred people (some get killed, some don't) isn't humane no matter how you spin it. Nothing about war is humane so I'll say again: "Arguing about the rules that state that you have to kill the enemy in a nice way is just plain stupid."
Maybe you aren't quite getting it yet, D.

Unit 731, 100 - Inhuman WMD Biological Warfare

This WMD Biological Warfare is definitely the worst crime case of systematic biological massacre against Humanity committed by a country in our Human History.

"The fellow knew that it was over for him, and so he didn't struggle." recalled the old former medical assistant of a Japanese Army unit in China in World War II, "But when I picked up the scalpel that's when he began screaming. I cut him open from the chest to the stomach, and he screamed terribly, and his face was all twisted in agony. He made this unimaginable sound, he was screaming so horribly. But then finally he stopped." The former medical assistant who insisted on anonymity, explained the reason for the vivisection. The Chinese prisoner had been deliberately infected with the plague as part of a research project.

Imperial Japan's biological killing fields are a lost chapter of history that the full horror of which is only recently been exposed and understood in all its enormity.

Japan set up Headquarters of Unit 731 in Ping Fan near Harbin and Unit 100 in ChangChun, and Mukden, now called SunYang, in China to develop plague bombs for use in WWII. The base was disguised as Epidemic Prevention and Water Supply Unit. The complex in Ping Fan was completed in 1939, contained more than 150 buildings, including 2 secret prisons and 3 crematoria, and was the largest WMD Biological Weapon research center in the world.

After infecting him, the researchers decided to cut him open alive, tear him apart, organ by organ, to see what the disease does to a man's inside. Often no anesthetic was used, he said, out of concern that it might have an effect on the results.

From July 1993 to Dec. 1994, the "Unit 731 Exhibition" toured Japan and presented at 61 locations over the course of one and half year. It had sent shockwaves throughout Japan. Hal Gold had collected many testimonies in his book "Unit 731: Testimony; Japan's Wartime Human Experimentation and the Post-War Cover-Up". One of the testimonies was provided by an aged former Japanese doctor Kurumizawa Masakuni :

The Chinese woman victim had regained her consciousness while being vivisected alive.
" She opened her eyes. "
" And then ? "
" She hollered. "
" What did she say ? "
Kurumizawa could not answer, then began weeping feebly and murmured,
" I don't want to think about it again. "
The interviewee apologized, waited a few seconds, and tried again for an answer.
He gave it through sobs.
" She said, "It's all right to kill me, but please spare my child's life."

Japanese Dr. Kanisawa testified in NBC Dateline "Factory of Death: Unit 731" in Aug. 15, 1995, the live un-anesthetized dissection was a routine common practice in all units.

"The 1st time, I was very hesitant to do what I was told to do.
The 2nd time, you get used to it.
The 3rd time, you more or less volunteered."

Yoshio Shinozuka, a former member of Unit 731 said "The first time, my legs were shaking so badly I could hardly stand up". He knew the person on the operating table, " At the vivisection, I could not meet his eyes because of the hate he had in his glare at me."

"We called the victims ‘logs’," he said, "We didn’t want to think of them as people. We didn’t want to admit that we were taking lives. So we convinced ourselves that what we were doing was like cutting down a tree. When you see someone in that state, you just can’t move. Your mind goes blank. The fear is overwhelming." said Yoshio.

The research program was one of the great secrets of Japan during and after World War II : a vast project to develop weapons of WMD Biological Warfare including following deadly diseases :
Bubonic Plague Anthrax (including inhalation,
skin and gastrointestinal types)
Smallpox Typhoid
Paratyphoid A and B Tularemia
Cholera Epidemic Hemorrhagic Fever
Syphilis Aerosols
Botulism Brucellosis
Dysentery Tetanus
Glanders Tuberculosis
Yellow fever Typhus
Tularemia Gas Gangrene
Scarlet Sever Songo
Diphtheria Brysipelas
Selmonella Venereal Diseases
Infectious Jaundice Undulant Fever
Epidemic Cerebrospinal Meningitis Tick Encephalitis
Plant diseases for crop destruction Dozen other pathogens​

Unit 731 & Unit 100 were comprised of over 3,000 researchers and technicians. It was a gigantic research center focused on WMD Biological Weapons - the world's most technically advanced at the time, used human as the guinea pigs, known as marutas (logs). The Japanese told the locals that the facilities were lumber mills.

The Ping Fan facility alone could monthly "manufacture as much as 300 kg of plague bacteria... 500-600 kg of anthrax germs, 800-900 kg typhoid, paratyphoid, or dysentery germs, or as much as 1000 kg of cholera germs." If several different diseases were manufactured simultaneously, then the total production of pathogens could be many times higher.

A former member of Unit 731 testified that "to eliminate any chance of leaking out the secret of construction of the 'Square Buildings' by the laborers, they are all sent to special prison and used as the first batch of test objects."

More than 10,000 Chinese, Korean and Russian PoWs were slaughtered in these biological experiments.

The vivisection was routinely used for practicing various kinds of surgery says Dr. Ken Yuasa, a former Japanese doctor working in China during the War. First an appendectomy, then an amputation of an arm and finally a tracheotomy. When they finished practicing, they killed the victim with an injection. "I was evil. I was a devil," Dr. Ken Yuasa says sadly. "We all were." Morimura Seiichi describes in explicit details of vivisection in his book "The Devouring Monster".

Medical researchers also locked up diseased prisoners with healthy ones, to see how readily various diseases would spread.

To determine how much pressure the body can withstand, some were put inside a pressure chamber would suffer terrible agony before their eyes pop out from their sockets and blood forced out through their skin.

Marutas were denied food or water to determine the maximum length of survival, or mummified alive in total dehydration experiments. Some were put into hot water and gradually increase the temperature to study degree of burns and the relationship between temperature and survival.

To determine the treatment of frostbite, prisoners were taken outside in freezing weather and left with exposed arms, periodically drenched with water until frozen solid. The arm was later amputated, the doctors would repeat the process on the victim's upper arm to the shoulder. After both arms were gone, the doctors moved on to the legs until only a head and torso remained. The victim was then used for plague and pathogens experiments.

That is just a 'taste' of what was done.

If you can equate this with what happened in Nagasaki and Hiroshima then I have several reams more and then we can get into the other Units in the Japanes Biowarfare group.

After that, we can have a run through the Nanjing Massacre and Chi Chi Island where the soldiers were actually executed for http://www.pacificwrecks.com/restore/museum/japanese/chi-chi-jima.html .

And http://www.flanews.com/archives2001/1207jeb2.htm .

Jeb Bush said:
Jeb Bush's Hero
by Victoria Langley

Friday December 7th, 2001​

Speaking at the dedication of the museum of Florida history's new "Florida remembers World War II" exhibit in Tallahassee, Governor Jeb Bush recognized the greatest generation. Jeb Bush says his hero is his father, the former President George Bush, who was nearly captured by enemy forces in World War II.

"In fact my dad didn't talk too much about what he did and in fact that's a common feature of this incredible generation. My dad was shot down in the Pacific in shark-infested waters, the Japanese garrison in a nearby island (Chi Chi Jima)was out to pick him up, he was on a raft, his two crew members had died, he was 19 years old, he was probably pretty scared and a submarine picked him up and I didn't know til last year in all honesty that the rest of the story is that that garrison commander on that island, that Japanese garrison commander was sentenced to death for war crimes for cannibalism. They ate the prisoners on that island to boost the moral of the Japanese troops. Now those stories are told over and over and over again, perhaps wisely amongst themselves, but it's important for us to understand and appreciate the valor and the courage and the duty-bound nature of a generation of people that didn't ask questions." said Bush.
Cannibalism and vivisection of allied flyers by the Japanese is quite well documented. Kyushu Imperial University officials, for example, have acknowledged vivisecting eight B-29 crewmen in experiments carried out on May 17, 23, 29 and June 3, 1945.

The experiments were arranged by the Western Japan Military Command and Prof. Fukujiroh Ishiyama, director of external medicine at the university.

In one experiment, Ishiyama extracted an American PoW's lungs and placed them in a surgical pan. He made an incision in the lung artery and allowed blood to flow into the chest cavity, killing the man. In another experiment, Ishiyama removed a prisoner's stomach, then cut five ribs and held a large artery near the heart to determine how long he could stop the blood flow before the victim died. In a third, another Japanese doctor made four openings in a prisoner's skull and inserted a knife into the brain to see what the reaction would be.

The prisoner died.

(from Ienaga, 1968, citing a Japanese publication, The Degradation of Wartime Medicine: the Complete Story on Human Vivisection by Hirako Goichi)
http://home.comcast.net/~winjerd/Page05.htm
"Kill-All Order" of August 1, 1944
War Ministry, Tokyo​

When the battle situation becomes urgent the POWs will be concentrated and confined in their location and kept under heavy guard until preparations for the final disposition will be made. Although the basic aim is to act under superior orders, individual disposition may be made in certain circumstances. Whether they are destroyed individually or in groups, and whether it is accomplished by means of mass bombing, poisonous smoke, poisons, drowning, or decapitation, dispose of them as the situation dictates. It is the aim not to allow the escape of a single one, to annihilate them all, and not to leave any traces.
From Wikipedia said:
The Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare, usually called the Geneva Protocol, is a treaty to ban the use of chemical and biological weapons. It was signed at Geneva on June 17, 1925 and was entered into force on February 8, 1928.
http://www.state.gov/t/ac/trt/4784.htm Signed by every member of the league of nations including Japan.
 
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  • #75
Those sort of experiments is something I can't fathom. If the argument is about getting perpertrators of these act to trail then I would agree.

I've trained quite a lot in dealing with NBC environments and injuries (Nuclear, Biological and Chemical) and I find it hard to understand how anybody could experiement on another human being with these (I get angry with the thought of experimenting with animals with these).

I was discussing an issue with a friend of mine and he was saying that the Japanese regarded soldier who surrended as less than animals therefore they were treated as such. Reports of 2 british soldiers who carried on fighting against overwhelming odds until one was killed and the other seriously injured. The one that survived was treated with a high degree of respect. I don't know how true this is but it might be worth considering.

Trying to understand the mindset of another person, especially if that person has done you a great wrong, is the first step of reconsiliation.
 
  • #76
Dagenais said:
Getting beheaded is the most unhonorable way to die. Japan new that, and that's why they killed using that specific method.


The Japanese considered beheading an honourable way to die. Which sources did you consult that stated otherwise? I'm just curious.

~Kitty
 
  • #77
Prometheus said:
What about Taiwan, Vietnam, Tibet, and Mongolia?


Prometheus, my knowledge of the events in Asia are rather limited. I am familiar with the cruel disgusting events in Tibet, but I know very very little about the events that transpired in Taiwan, Vietnam, and Mongolia. Could you provide a small synopsis please?

I do know there were atrocities which took place in those countries at the Chinese hand. I agree with your examples in previous posts. Mongolia and Vietnam remain soverign nations. As was Tibet until the mid 1940's. Thus whatever the Chinese inflicted upon them would constitute an attack on another nation.

Dagenais, how do these not fit your request for examples? They were attacks on independent and soverign nations.

~Kitty
 
  • #78
Smurf said:
uhhhh... I disagree. WW1? Nazism? Fascism? Stalinism? The countless deaths European Imperialism caused. I don't know how historical you want to get, so I'll just include everything... The Spanish and English practically wiped out indigenous Americans who are only now beginning to numerally recover (only to have their culture destroyed). More than 20% of the world's population lived and died under the rule of the Roman Empire at it's height, and Rome didn't exactly work hard to keep people alive, or free.

Agreed. Don't forget the Spanish Inquistition or the feud between the Catholics and the Protestants in Ireland. Those have taken the lives of many westerners.
 
  • #79
misskitty said:
Prometheus, my knowledge of the events in Asia are rather limited. I am familiar with the cruel disgusting events in Tibet, but I know very very little about the events that transpired in Taiwan, Vietnam, and Mongolia. Could you provide a small synopsis please?

I do know there were atrocities which took place in those countries at the Chinese hand. I agree with your examples in previous posts. Mongolia and Vietnam remain soverign nations. As was Tibet until the mid 1940's. Thus whatever the Chinese inflicted upon them would constitute an attack on another nation.

Dagenais, how do these not fit your request for examples? They were attacks on independent and soverign nations.

~Kitty
If that is your entire knowledge of what went on in Tibet, then I would consider it severely limited.

In 1907, it was verified by the British and the Russians that China was the owner of Tibet.

In 1911 however, the Chinese withdrew their troops to handle the Revolution that was under way.

Mongolia!? I am not sure if you understand that the 'Great Wall' was built to keep the Mongolians OUT. It was Ghengis Kahn who eventually invaded and not only unified China but added his ownership of Mongolia to the mix.

This was in fact when the Chinese became known as 'The Han'.

Ironically, the mention of Taiwan or Formosa was your downfall in all of this.

You see, it is enshrined in the constitution of the KMT just what it is that the current administration of China owns by right of succession ... the international law that governs what passes from the rulers of nations when another ruler takes over.

Here is the text of the constitution of Taiwan and article 26 states:
Article 26
The National Assembly shall be composed of the following Delegates:
1. One Delegate shall be elected from each County, Municipality, or area of equivalent status. In case the population of the electoral district exceeds 500,000, one additional Delegate shall be elected for each additional 500,000. The election of Delegates representing areas equivalent in status to the County or Municipality shall be prescribed by law.
2. Delegates to represent Mongolia shall be elected on the basis of four for each League and one for each Special Banner.
3. The number of Delegates to be elected from Tibet shall be prescribed by law.

4. The number of Delegates to be elected by various ethnic groups in frontier regions shall be prescribed by law.
5. The number of Delegates to be elected by Chinese citizens residing abroad shall be prescribed by law.
6. The number of Delegates to be elected by occupational groups shall be prescribed by law.
7. The number of Delegates to be elected by women's organizations shall be prescribed by law.
I suggest you read the Chinese take on the issue located http://www.tibet-china.org/historical_status/english/content.html and ask yourself WHY it is that the UN stays out of it while calling it an 'internal' issue.

Now I would really like to hear your 'take' on the subject of a country, occupied by the Chinese since 1951 who were 'fired upon' by supposed Buddhists!?

What is the Eight Fold Path to you and what is so strange about Buddhists firing guns at people?

Yes, now the man who staged a failed military coup in 1959 somehow has you convinced that he is the prince of peace? :smile:
 
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  • #80
misskitty said:
The Japanese considered beheading an honourable way to die. Which sources did you consult that stated otherwise? I'm just curious.

~Kitty
The act of Seppuku was an honourable way to die.

The use of a 'second' to behead you was to prevent you from crying out and disgracing yourself.

Beheading in the second world war was used to test the family blade.

Many of the pictures we have from the Nanjing Massacre are of Japanese servicemen taken with the heads they had removed with their family swords that had been shortened for the purpose of the war.

You can recognize them as what appears to be holiday snaps: (Warning ... nasty)

http://www.travelchinaguide.com/picture/jiangsu/nanjing/nanjing-massacre/a000023.htm
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/picture/jiangsu/nanjing/nanjing-massacre/a000028.htm
 
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  • #81
If China

For a science forum thread based on boos at a soccer match, this thread get's pretty nitty gritty. Congratulations, after reading several threads, I have finally written my first post on this website, which I might add, is very cool as I am a fan of science.

War is never nice. Let's get that out of the way. Sometimes innocent civilians are caught in the middle of a war they did not start. I do not condone the actions taken at Hiroshima or Nagasaki. A horrible act designed to do one thing, kill many and end japanese participation in a war in which America was forced into reluctantly. America was not the instigator of that war, the congress at that time resembled the congress of today except there were probably less marxist moles in the congress at that point in time. Today, forget about it and hope you can slowly fix things next election, and the next, and the next.

I personally feel that an oath of office is outdated. We need to question our future leaders with truth serum and lie detectors to be sure they are not our enemy or aiding our enemy. Wait, that would probably disqualify all of our politicians.

I wonder if any of the contempt between china and nihon was due to the sino-japanese war of 1894 in which china was defeated within a single year (in 1895) by the japanese and forced to give up many things they didn't want to give up. The war, I believe, initially started over Korea because japan feared russian expansion into northern china and korea, a China tributary at the time. This was also the point in history when the Chinese Imperial Government was forced to cede sovereignty over taiwan to the japanese. As you know, china didn't like that, and I'm sure there are still people in positions of power in the PRC that despise Japan for this very fact. The second sino-japanese war was ended, by whom? You got it, the evil Americans, who defeated the japanese in 1945 thus ending the japanese invasion of china. China unfortunately became communist four years later creating a whole new problem entirely, and to me, truly rivals US hegemony or possibly surpasses the US with the exception of military might, but that too is closing in.

China, I fear, will combine might with their simpatico comrades (like they already have) to the north and their muslim friends (saddam called for his communist allies to come to his aid in a speech during the beginning of the US invasion of Iraq which I found in several US papers) to defeat the hegemon known as America, the last big hurdle communism must pass before they can control us all. As an american, all I can really do is vote for the lesser of two liars. We have two main parties in america, Democommies and republicommies. Pick one and get the other. Maybe we should have voted for Gore, after all, he did invent the internet. lmao :smile:

Personally I hope the person many people in Russia call a kook beats Putin in their next election, that person is kasperov. You chess people should know the name, he is the best in the world. I would be able to sleep better knowing china and russia were not so cozy plotting world domination together. I am slightly concerned about BRIC as well, as China is obviously leveraging itself for a war that will take place between our three great nations very soon (China, Russia & America). Blair I do not trust. Bush I do not trust, how can I, our borders are wide open, and for a sinister reason i fear. How can you be in war and leave your borders unsecured? It doesn't add up. Our "minute men" are considered vigilantes for doing what our federal government is supposed to provide, our defense.

Please see this link for more on BRIC
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/bline/2003/10/27/stories/2003102700230900.htm

(BRIC =Brazil, Russia, India, China)

China will deny it, I'm sure, but is it a coincidence that the panama canal and the bahamas port are controlled by the same company, Hutchison Whampoa? I think not, especially with chinese spies being one of America's hottest national security threats. This is all quite blatantly obvious to those with an iq over 130. Luckily for communists, many "useful idiots" as Lenin refers to them, do not qualify for this bracket of intelligence and believe what they are told by our own great media propaganda mills. Yeah, I know, it's supposed to look like the bahamas port will only be used for shipping their cheap junk to america, but what of it's militarily strategic importance or that of the panama canal? There are links between Hutchison Whampoa and the PRC. Only a useful idiot would believe companies doing business in china can do so without authority from the PRC. Look at the stockholders of these chinese businesses which make up the new "capitalist-communist" company hybrids, they are mainly communist party hacks and cronies. You will conduct business their way or no way, and many companies nowadays look only at profit and not for the benefit of america. China intends to own the means of production and manufacture on the world, as you are starting the see the effects now. We will soon be buying most of our own munitions from china. Scary, you bet. Wise, certainly not. With chinese and russian spies everywhere in america, I fear for us all. Chinese, Russian, Pakistani, American, Indians and the Japanese, who may just do the right thing this time and join the right side of a world war to defeat global communism. Or am I just dreaming?

I have friends of all nationalities and am by no means racist or one-sided. Communism is never the answer to anything except for maybe how to kill many,... or re-educate them, whichever term you prefer, ultimately ending with the same result.

I really wouldn't care what goes on in China if I knew for certain that China does not mean us any harm. This could happen. And Palestinians keeping a peace treaty could happen too, with about the same likelihood. Or perhaps a small monkey flying out of my rectum could be equally as likely to happen.

All right you pro-marxists, please pick me to shreds now. So others can see the real you. :devil:
 
  • #82
Is Kasperov really running?
 
  • #83
Kasperov

He threw his hat into the ring earlier this year. The "state" media and their like are passing him off as a kook though. It's hard telling how things will end up.

Gary Kasperov was recently attacked by someone posing as a fan. Had kasperov sign his chess board, then whacked him with it. From what I read, it wasn't your standard flimsy chessboard either.

Hopefully now he will be more cautious as there are obviously those that do not want to see him run.
 
  • #84
Someone called in the big guns :biggrin: Welcome to the discussion Orwell.

You make some very good points and I think you are right on about the 2 political parties in America. You may want to join another discussion currently running about "America poised for world domination".

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=84852

As for this thread, I don't really know where this is going to lead to anymore, but I think we can all agree that this attack on China was unecessary and unjustified. Japan not admitting fault or trying to deny fault will affect the relations between the two countries for as long as either country continues to bring it up. China is not a country known for forgetting anything as they have one of the oldest historical records.

All this will result in booing of Japanese athletes. This is only understandable as booing is a sporting tactic called home court advantage.

I don't know where else this discussion will lead to but I come to read it every so often to see if there are any interesting points I can learn from other PFers.
 
  • #85
Orwell's Ghost said:
I really wouldn't care what goes on in China if I knew for certain that China does not mean us any harm. This could happen. And Palestinians keeping a peace treaty could happen too, with about the same likelihood. Or perhaps a small monkey flying out of my rectum could be equally as likely to happen.

All right you pro-marxists, please pick me to shreds now. So others can see the real you. :devil:
Marxist!?

I live over here.

Last reference to Marx I saw over here was Duck Soup in a bootleg version of all the Marx Brothers movies on DVD.

I think the USA should stop trying to project their feelings on to the Chinese for a start.

The Chinese have observed how to win a war with the USA. They had good teachers in the Japanese.

The problem is, the USA wasn't aware there was a war on or that they lost it.

Wars are fought in the boardroom today folks.

You know, I think it was when Sony Pictures blocked the release of Return From the River Kwai in 1988 that you should have got your first clue.

You lost to Japan and now you are losing to China ... not a Marxist/Communist entity but a capitalist society with more connections to pure capitalism than the good ole' U S of A. After all, the Chinese don't have any socialist programs to cut into the bottom line.

Dude, there is more Communism and Socialism in America right now.

This is a Neocon wet dream over here ... Pure fascism being controlled by the Yuan and who has the most of it.
 
  • #86
outsider said:
I don't know where else this discussion will lead to but I come to read it every so often to see if there are any interesting points I can learn from other PFers.
Actually you're not an official "PFer" until you reach 500 posts. You're still a NPFer. Sorry.
 
  • #87
Orwell's Ghost said:
I personally feel that an oath of office is outdated. We need to question our future leaders with truth serum and lie detectors to be sure they are not our enemy or aiding our enemy. Wait, that would probably disqualify all of our politicians.
Judging from USA's definition of an 'enemy' that would disqualify anyone who isn't brainwashed to kow tow to the administration's every whim.
This was also the point in history when the Chinese Imperial Government was forced to cede sovereignty over taiwan to the japanese.
An interesting point I hadn't considered before. China lays claim to Taiwan as national territory, but there's a good half a decade where China recognized Taiwan as part of Japan's territory before they went to war again. Then after the war, the Communist government claims everything the old China had, and then some. Food for thought.

China, I fear, will combine might with their simpatico comrades (like they already have) to the north
Russians are simpatic to China? Oh COME ON! Those two havn't had decent relations since Mao.
and their muslim friends (saddam called for his communist allies to come to his aid in a speech during the beginning of the US invasion of Iraq which I found in several US papers) to defeat the hegemon known as America,
You may not realize this, but Saddam was probably sucking up at the time.
Oh, but you were right by assuming he speaks for all them muslims 'allies'.. you know.. considering he was a secular dictator and all.

the last big hurdle communism must pass before they can control us all. As an american, all I can really do is vote for the lesser of two liars. We have two main parties in america, Democommies and republicommies. Pick one and get the other. Maybe we should have voted for Gore, after all, he did invent the internet. lmao :smile:
You remind me of the smurfs, only instead of replacing every 3rd word with 'smurf' you replace it with 'commie'.

Personally I hope the person many people in Russia call a kook beats Putin in their next election, that person is kasperov. You chess people should know the name, he is the best in the world. I would be able to sleep better knowing china and russia were not so cozy plotting world domination together.
You do realize that Russia, aside from having a lot of territory, isn't really that much of a threat these days? It's not even considered a developed country by some standards.

I am slightly concerned about BRIC as well, as China is obviously leveraging itself for a war that will take place between our three great nations very soon (China, Russia & America).
Russia is barely considered a developed nation! It's no where near it's power during the USSR years.
Blair I do not trust. Bush I do not trust,
From the sound of you I'd reckon you wouldn't trust Mother "Commie" Teresa either.
how can I, our borders are wide open, and for a sinister reason i fear. How can you be in war and leave your borders unsecured?
Well, you're not *at war* with anyone on your borders so... It seems pretty logical to me. I mean, unless you think Canada is going to turn Islam Theocracy tomorrow and declare war. Which, I won't deny, IS a possibility... It's just not... very likely... is all...

It doesn't add up. Our "minute men" are considered vigilantes for doing what our federal government is supposed to provide, our defense.
Yeah, in fact I think I saw something about Mexico planning to invade you next thursday.. or was that the rapture? These things are so confusing.

Regardless, I guess Mexico finally dealt with that little civil war they have going on there, no big deal really, only been going on for the last decade or so.

Please see this link for more on BRIC
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/bline/2003/10/27/stories/2003102700230900.htm

(BRIC =Brazil, Russia, India, China)
First of all BRAZIL is moving in the exact opposite direction of China and India, you may have heard something about it, some internal strife resulting in Left Wing Radical governments... no?

China will deny it, I'm sure, but is it a coincidence that the panama canal and the bahamas port are controlled by the same company, Hutchison Whampoa? I think not,
Imagine that, a port and a canal owned by the same company... They're even in the same body of water! It MUST be a conspiracy!

especially with chinese spies being one of America's hottest national security threats.
Yeah those nasty Chinese Terr-um-spies! Those Muslim spie-um-suicidebombers don't even compare!

This is all quite blatantly obvious to those with an iq over 130.
Yeah, because politics is all about spatial awareness and logical mathematics.
[qupte]Luckily for communists, many "useful idiots" as Lenin refers to them, [/quote]Actually Lenin spoke russian.
do not qualify for this bracket of intelligence and believe what they are told by our own great media propaganda mills.
No argument from me there.
Yeah, I know, it's supposed to look like the bahamas port will only be used for shipping their cheap junk to america, but what of it's militarily strategic importance or that of the panama canal?
What about it?
There are links between Hutchison Whampoa and the PRC.
*gasp* and that's not the half of it! They also have links with the USA AND France!

Only a useful idiot would believe companies doing business in china can do so without authority from the PRC.
I disagree, that's more of a trait for useless idiots.
Look at the stockholders of these chinese businesses which make up the new "capitalist-communist" company hybrids, they are mainly communist party hacks and cronies.
Hey Ya! Just like Enron!
You will conduct business their way or no way, and many companies nowadays look only at profit and not for the benefit of america.
You might even think that they're capitalist. God forbid.
China intends to own the means of production and manufacture on the world, as you are starting the see the effects now. We will soon be buying most of our own munitions from china. Scary, you bet. Wise, certainly not.
It doesn't work that way, you don't have to buy anything from China unless it's owned by China, as it is there are American companies making stuff in China, they're still owned by American corporations.

With chinese and russian spies everywhere in america, I fear for us all.
Really? I just fear for you.
Chinese, Russian, Pakistani, American, Indians and the Japanese, who may just do the right thing this time and join the right side of a world war to defeat global communism. Or am I just dreaming?
The dreaming one.
I have friends of all nationalities and am by no means racist or one-sided.
No.. not at all... :rolleyes:
Communism is never the answer to anything except for maybe how to kill many,... or re-educate them, whichever term you prefer, ultimately ending with the same result.
Yup
http://www.tnbonline.com/images/photos/cash.jpg
I really wouldn't care what goes on in China if I knew for certain that China does not mean us any harm. This could happen. And Palestinians keeping a peace treaty could happen too, with about the same likelihood. Or perhaps a small monkey flying out of my rectum could be equally as likely to happen.
or it growing lips...
All right you pro-marxists, please pick me to shreds now. So others can see the real you. :devil:
just FYI I'm an anarchist (before any misunderstandings happen) :smile:
 
  • #88
Smurf said:
Actually you're not an official "PFer" until you reach 500 posts. You're still a NPFer. Sorry.
Cool.

Ya mean I'm in then?

Heck, I was warned by Evo on about my third day out.

You mean there's no hazing like wearing underwear on my head, going down to the 7/11 and screaming "allah akbar this Mo Fo"?

Oh, sorry that was the Rush Limbaugh fan club ... Never mind.
 
  • #89
The Smoking Man said:
Cool.
Yes it is
Ya mean I'm in then?
Sure.
Heck, I was warned by Evo on about my third day out.
You always did get along with the ladies
You mean there's no hazing like wearing underwear on my head, going down to the 7/11 and screaming "allah akbar this Mo Fo"?
Geeze man, I don't know. I just made it up as part of my recent newb-bashing scheme
Oh, sorry that was the Rush Limbaugh fan club ... Never mind.
Funny.
 
  • #90
Please let me apologize if I came off sounding like I want a world war to occur. That is not what I am hoping for. I am just concerned with the amount of heat I feel radiating off of china at the moment, from their massive buildup of weaponry to the enlargement of their naval force. Espionage and media contro, yeah, throw that it too.

I am glad to hear that china is such a capitalist powerhouse these days. I am surprised the chinese would actually accept that label be utilized. They are not capitalist, but let's get to that later.

They do want to control the means of production and manufacture. Maybe you could explain exactly how to interpret article 6 of the PRC constitution as it is a little hard to understand, me being a nieve caucasian and all. Article 6 The basis of the socialist economic system of the People's Republic of China is socialist public ownership of the means of production, namely, ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people.

Now, I do see it says socialist public ownership of the means of production, but please explain the "ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people." portion of the article. What exactly is "socialist public ownership" and collective ownership by the whole people? Where's my dividend for all the cheap Walmart garbage? I haven't received a check, unless that means Chinese people.

Another question I have regarding Article 9 "All mineral resources, waters, forests, mountains, grasslands, unreclaimed land, beaches, and other natural resources are owned by the state, that is, by the whole people, with the exception of the forest, mountains, grasslands and unreclaimed land and beaches that are owned by collectives in accordance with the law. The state ensures the rational use of natural resources and protects rare animals and plants. Appropriation or damaging natural resources by any organization or individual by whatever means is prohibited.

Are your house and land given to you for being a good boy? And taken from you when you're naughty? Please enlighten me.

Please let me know why speech is controlled in your country but a chinese general can spout off about nuking many US cities and he is not punished by his peers?

Sorry again for not mentioning the word communist yet. Oops, too late. Damn. Smurf, I thought you'd be proud of me. Smoking Man, sorry for dropping the Marx name from nowhere, you got to throw him in the mix so as not to use the c word too much, it makes smurf very unsmurfy.

Smoking Man, please let me know how your "mother land", oh damn, that's russia. Please let me know how china deals with those horrible, horibble cyber cafes. Damn those young kids and their desire to learn from somewhere that isn't yet censored by "Uncle Shek". It's ashame that the doors to some of these places seem to get locked when the place mysteriously starts on fire and incinerates everyone while they are locked inside. Don't you hate it when that happens.

The chinese are great people, their leaders could use a hug though. I would like to say things seemed to have cooled down a bit since that whole tieneman thingy. Again, against those crazy kids.

If china was really so "open", why do they censor all news, media, films, behavior, pasttimes and such. I'm not sure I could deal with that myself, but to each his own I guess. I like to read what I like, see what I want to see and learn what I want to learn. I assumed most people felt the same.

Again, for the record, I am not racist. I am an anti-socialist, plain and simple. Whether they be american socialists/communists or wherever they may be lurking. I have many chinese friends (and japanese friends too). I do not have many russian friends, but my last girlfriend was lithuanian, does that count? It is a russian state. Russian girls are definitely something else. Beautiful for sure. My wife wouldn't like me saying that though... Russian news is da bomb.

I would, however, like to point you to a great information source. Perhaps you have heard of him, Colonel Stanislav Lunev. He has great information although you probably won't find anything more recent than say 2001 or 2002. You see, he is the highest ranking soviet ever to defect from mother russia. He's pretty much come clean on a lot of spicy issues and has went into detail about the communists' siege on america (a work in progress) such as infiltration of our media, our government, poisoning water sources and much much more. I know, you said that russia and china are not helping out, but maybe that's because your newspaper isn't telling you anything about it? After all, it is censored. :)

Please explain, the pact to join in a fight against america. Or about the joint-military exercise of 5,000 troops. Yes, I did say joint exercise. This does appear that they are working with each other. I find it hard to believe that someone in the homeland has access to internet and isn't incinerated yet. Hmmm.

Mr. Smoking Man, I must say I am amazed at the professional quality of some of your posts. If you are not using a team of subordinates to make your posts, I must say you truly are an impressive individual. You aren't Falun Gong are you? If you are, you better watch your back, the PRC will kill you first and identify your remains later.

Lastly, I would like to say Accuracy In Media has a eyeopening report in Feb. 03.
http://www.aim.org/aim_report/A217_0_4_0_C/

Please explain why so many millions have died under communism in such a short amount of time? Sounds like such a great system of government. No corruption at the highest levels, utopia everywhere. Must be grand.
 
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