Clarify remark from Landau's Mechanics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical treatment of small oscillations in mechanics, specifically addressing the polynomial expansion of potential energy functions and the dependence of kinetic energy coefficients on generalized coordinates. Participants explore the validity of these expansions and the conditions under which they hold, as presented in Landau's Mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the validity of using a polynomial expansion for the potential energy function U(q) around an equilibrium point q0, asking how such an expansion is justified.
  • Another participant suggests that the kinetic energy coefficient must be a function of the generalized coordinate q, providing an example where q is expressed as a function of a Cartesian coordinate.
  • A different participant proposes that the potential U(q) can be expanded using a Taylor series, noting that the first derivative at the equilibrium point is zero.
  • Further clarification is provided that the Taylor expansion is valid for any potential that is twice differentiable at q0, with an implication that most physically relevant potentials are infinitely differentiable.
  • Participants express uncertainty about the existence of such expansions for arbitrary potentials, with one participant specifically asking how one can be sure of this existence.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the use of Taylor expansions for potentials that are sufficiently smooth, but there remains some uncertainty regarding the applicability of these expansions to all potential functions.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights assumptions about the differentiability of potential functions and the conditions under which polynomial expansions are applicable, without resolving these assumptions definitively.

WiFO215
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While discussing the small oscillations of particles about a stable equilibrium, Landau writes

...The potential U(q) for small deviations can be expressed as a polynomial
[tex]U(q) - U(q_{0}) = \frac{1}{2}k(q - q_{0})^{2}[/tex]

...The kinetic energy of a free particle in one dimension is generally of the form
[tex]\frac{1}{2}a(q)\dot{q}^{2}[/tex]

...

Where q is the generalized co-ordinate.

Section 21, Volume 1

1. How do you know such a polynomial expansion for q is allowed? How do you know it exists? After all, this is any old U with its first derivative 0 at q0.
2. Why does the co-efficient of [tex]\dot{q}^{2}[/tex] have to be a function of q? I thought it'd be a constant.
 
Last edited:
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anirudh215 said:
2. Why does the co-efficient of [tex]\dot{q}^{2}[/tex] have to be a function of q? I thought it'd be a constant.
A generalized coordinate q will be some function of the ordinary cartesian coordinate x. For concreteness, let's say q = x³, or x = q1/3.

The kinetic energy is then

[tex]T = \frac{1}{2} m \dot{x}^2 = \frac{m}{18q^{4/3}} \dot{q}^2 = \frac{1}{2} a(q) \dot{q}^2[/tex]

with a(q) = m/9q4/3
 
anirudh215 said:
1. How do you know such a polynomial expansion for q is allowed? How do you know it exists? After all, this is any old U with its first derivative 0 at q0.

Expand U(q) as a taylor expansion around q0. The first order term will be zero since q0 is an equilibrium point.
 
Oh! I didn't think of that. Thanks. What about question 1?
 
[tex]U(q) = U(q_0) + \frac{dU}{dq}_{q_0} (q - q_0) + \frac{d^2U}{dq^2}_{q_0} \frac{(q - q_0)^2}{2} + ...[/tex]

[tex]U(q) - U(q_0) = \frac{d^2U}{dq^2}_{q_0} \frac{(q - q_0)^2}{2} + ...[/tex]
 
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dx said:
[tex]U(q) = U(q_0) + \frac{dU}{dq}_{q_0} (q - q_0) + \frac{d^2U}{dq^2}_{q_0} \frac{(q - q_0)^2}{2} + ...[/tex]

[tex]U(q) - U(q_0) = \frac{d^2U}{dq^2}_{q_0} \frac{(q - q_0)^2}{2} + ...[/tex]

I know how to Taylor expand that function. My question was how do you know such a thing exists for any potential.
 
You can just think of this formula as something that applies for any potential which is twice differentiable at q0. Most physically meaningful potentials will of course be infinitely differentiable.
 
Okay! Thank you!
 

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