Community Reacts to Apple vs FBI Story

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In summary: I think that this is a case where the FBI is asking for too much. The geeks should be able to figure it out without having to pay Apple. But I really believe in capitalism more than government takings by force. Why not simply make the FBI pony up whatever the geeks demand to solve their problem? In summary, Apple is refusing to help the FBI break into the phone of a mass murderer, and CEO Tim Cook is concerned about the precedent this could set.
  • #386
Derek Francis said:
But seeing as the FBI essentially said "We're entitled, you owe us, give us your data or else, and if you don't comply, **** you", my response would be "**** you too".

Understandably so and that's what is in the media spot light and it paints a bad picture, but I guarantee you they used a soft secret back channel approach before this whole thing went public. That's just how things like this happen. More than likely it was with a security contact within the company when they first made inquiries about unlocking the phone, that went on up the chain of apples command until the FBI received a strict NO WE WILL NOT HELP YOU, get a warrant. Then when it went public the fire works started, apple spouting rights to privacy, the FBI sighting need to know national security. I have had legal dealings with some mobile phone carriers about archived messages during a case...I was denied access, It took a subpoena from the state attorney general to get anywhere.
I still to this day have no idea if they got the material that was requested, but the company made it clear if the messages were not older than "120 days" they could be retrieved.

BTW we won the case, and I suspect that on top of the evidence I had gathered they got something that proved it beyond a shadow of a doubt.
 
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  • #389
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  • #390
jackwhirl said:
Sounds like they were successful.
http://wpo.st/zt1Q1

I guess we will also see if they will tell Apple exactly how it was done.
The government will now be left to decide whether it will outline the method to Apple in keeping with a little-known process in which federal officials are supposed to consider disclosing security vulnerabilities they find.

Michael Daniel, special assistant to the president and cybersecurity coordinator, wrote in a White House blog post published in April 2014 that “disclosing vulnerabilities usually makes sense,” given how much people rely on the Internet and connected devices.
 
  • #391
The conflict between the DOJ/FBI and Apple is moot - Justice Department cracks iPhone; withdraws legal action
A law enforcement official said the FBI was successful in unlocking the iPhone over the weekend. The official spoke to reporters on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to publicly comment. The official said federal law enforcement would continue to aid its local and state partners with gaining evidence in cases — implying that the method would be shared with them.

First in line is likely, Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus Vance, who told a U.S. House panel earlier this month that he has 205 iPhones his investigators can't access data from in criminal investigations. Apple is also opposing requests to help extract information from 14 Apple devices in California, Illinois, Massachusetts and New York.
 
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  • #392
gjonesy said:
Agreed BUT...if left to discover a way to decrypt this information on their own the (FBI) would undoubtedly misuse the technology if they can develop it. If the manufacture is involved there is no risk of proprietary copy or misuse...they have a stake in HELPING the FBI. The product itself would be less compromised and proprietary secrets could remain secrets. Although I'm sure the FBI would demand "how they did it" and the company apple could fight any further litigation via copyright laws. There is no need to give away the secret recipe just give them a peek under the crust. IMHO.

gjonesy said:
Yes very true, and I get what you're saying, I'm just saying that the company itself has a stake in this. And who's to say that if they help the software they create is going to fall into the wrong hands?
^----------the infamous post 336.

gjonesy said:
https://www.staradvertiser.com/busi...can-unlock-terrorists-iphone-prosecutors-say/
Statement 1. apple can open this phone and has a stake in doing it "in house" to protect its own product.

nsaspook said:
Apple uses its private signing key to authenticate (signed code) the FBI requested software is a valid program for the existing firmware on the phone to install unconditionally if it's also in the correct format. The FBI is not asking for (yet) and does not get the private key, they only get code signed with it. In theory if Apple designed the code to only work with the one phones internal serial or ID key it would be impossible to use it on other phones without altering (changing the hash) of the signed code and invalidating the 'OK to install' authentication.

^ Apple's co-operation I personally believe could have prevented the current situation.
jackwhirl said:
Sounds like they were successful.
http://wpo.st/zt1Q1

A law enforcement official said the FBI was successful in unlocking the iPhone over the weekend. The official spoke to reporters on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to publicly comment. The official said federal law enforcement would continue to aid its local and state partners with gaining evidence in cases — implying that the method would be shared with them.

First in line is likely, Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus Vance, who told a U.S. House panel earlier this month that he has 205 iPhones his investigators can't access data from in criminal investigations. Apple is also opposing requests to help extract information from 14 Apple devices in California, Illinois, Massachusetts and New York.

That genie is out of the bottle now, and apple is probably going to have a fight on its hand to get that genie back in.
gjonesy said:
the real danger is leaving it to the FBI unaided to find out on their own. What if they find and hire someone who can, what if they let the information leak. They just might do that for spite cause apple fought

^ also from post 336
See how these things RELATE now?

What they have now amounts to a cracking method that can be used and abused.
 
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  • #393
gjonesy said:
That genie is out of the bottle now, and apple is probably going to have a fight on its hand to get that genie back in.
'
Like putting the toothpaste back into the tube. Apple was between a rock and a hard place. I'm not that computer savvy but it seem that if you create data it is recoverable unless it is destroyed. In the old days of spying encrypted info was passed hand to hand on paper which was then burned. Why do people keep incriminating info anyway. One thing I don't understand is that police etc can come into your home "sanctum sanctorum" with a proper warrant and search it. What makes a phone special that it should be exempt?
 
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  • #394
gjonesy said:
Yes very true, and I get what you're saying, I'm just saying that the company itself has a stake in this. And who's to say that if they help the software they create is going to fall into the wrong hands? they don't even have to create the key on a computer connected to the web,(so it couldn't be hacked and stolen) stuff like that (the authentication sign in key) can be made as secure as the encryption itself, the real danger is leaving it to the FBI unaided to find out on their own. What if they find and hire someone who can,(pretty much exactly what they did) what if they let the information leak. (pretty much exactly what happened)They just might do that for spite cause apple fought them on it. (and now they are probably going to share that information with other agencies that have looser cyber security protocols)

^^^^^^^^^^post #336Can people see how each one of these statements lead pretty much one right after the other up to the current events of today?
Borg said:
Please feel free to take any two statements from your post #336 and show how one leads to the other.

Funny ol world isn't it,...lol And now pretty self explanatory!
 
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  • #395
If A and B therefore C is not a valid conclusion no matter how many times you quote yourself.
 
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  • #396
Hmm

seems to me
that this little software company
http://www.cellebrite.com/Pages/ios-forensics-physical-extraction-decoding-and-analysis-from-ios-devices
was so easily able to get into the phone
says no phones are really secure.

Cellebrite mobile forensics solutions give access to and unlock the intelligence of mobile data sources ...

In other words, as kids have said ever since radio came about

"...don't broadcast secrets .."
 
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  • #397
Borg said:
If A and B therefore C is not a valid conclusion no matter how many times you quote yourself.

Ok whatever you say, I won't argue that point with you!..lol.. keep telling yourself that, what ever makes you feel better about it.

People can read and decide on their own without mine or your opinion injected into the mix.
 
  • #398
jim hardy said:
In other words, as kids have said ever since radio came about

"...don't broadcast secrets .."

"Never say anything on the phone that you wouldn't want your mother to hear at your trial"
 
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  • #399
gleem said:
Like putting the toothpaste back into the tube. Apple was between a rock and a hard place. I'm not that computer savvy but it seem that if you create data it is recoverable unless it is destroyed.

Some phones do just that, after so many failed attempts at cracking a phone, some lock so that only the manufacturer can open it. Some OS wipe the phone, others just keep it encrypted, some phones like mine have a remote feature and option that if lost or stolen you can delete your information remotely.

Seems like there really is no totally secure method, just counter measures that sometimes work. In this case the FBI probably spent an ungodly amount of money to get some limited and maybe even useless data. I think this has turned into something more akin to (proving a point) then it is about anything else now.
 
  • #400
gjonesy said:
Seems like there really is no totally secure method, just counter measures that sometimes work. In this case the FBI probably spent an ungodly amount of money to get some limited and maybe even useless data.

Somebody posted edit- the alleged actual purchase order to Cellebrite on 'net.
Was not much money , either $1,500 or $15,000 i think - i remember thinking it trivial.
edit no luck so far and the report is now being discredited...

claim withdrawn... jh
 
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  • #404
This looks a little more like what Id expect.

https://www.fpds.gov/ezsearch/fpdsportal?indexName=awardfull&templateName=1.4&s=FPDS&q=+cellebrite+usa+corp+2016+CONTRACTING_AGENCY_NAME%3A%22FEDERAL+BUREAU+OF+INVESTIGATION%22
Award ID (Mod#):DJF161200G0004569 (View)[/PLAIN] Award Type: PURCHASE ORDER
Vendor Name: CELLEBRITE USA CORP Contracting Agency: FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
Date Signed: March 28, 2016 Action Obligation: $218,004.85
Referenced IDV: Contracting Office: DEPT OF JUST/FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
NAICS (Code): RADIO AND TELEVISION BROADCASTING AND WIRELESS COMMUNICATIONS EQUIPMENT MANUFACTURING ( 334220 ) PSC (Code): INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY SUPPLIES ( 7045 )
Vendor City: PARSIPPANY Vendor DUNS: 033095568
Vendor State: NJ Vendor ZIP: 070544413
Global Vendor Name: CELLEBRITE USA CORP Global DUNS Number: 033095568

Over 200 grand
 
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  • #406
paywall on LATimes link

what's up with Arkansas ?
 
  • #408
Apple still doesn’t know how the FBI hacked iPhone without help
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apple-remains-dark-fbi-hacked-072634235.html

The FBI’s announcement that it mysteriously hacked into an iPhone is a public setback for Apple Inc., as consumers learned that they can’t keep the government out of even an encrypted device that U.S. officials had claimed was impossible to crack. Apple, meanwhile, remains in the dark about how to restore the security of its flagship product.

A few clues have emerged. A senior law enforcement official told The Associated Press that the FBI managed to defeat an Apple security feature that threatened to delete the phone’s contents if the FBI failed to enter the correct passcode combination after 10 tries. That allowed the government to repeatedly and continuously test passcodes in what’s known as a brute-force attack until the right code is entered and the phone is unlocked.
 
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  • #409
Astronuc said:
Apple still doesn’t know how the FBI hacked iPhone without help
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apple-remains-dark-fbi-hacked-072634235.html
Do honest average Americans really have to fear this level of hacking into their phones if they have done nothing..NO.
 
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  • #410
Evo said:
Do honest average Americans really have to fear this level of hacking into their phones if they have done nothing..NO.
The worry of the average person isn't that law enforcement would get into their phone, but that criminals or identity thieves might be able to. I have a lot of contacts in my phone (many include addresses) that I wouldn't want just anyone to have, especially if their intent is malicious.
 
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  • #411
Dembadon said:
The worry of the average person isn't that law enforcement would get into their phone, but that criminals or identity thieves might be able to. I have a lot of contacts in my phone (many include addresses) that I wouldn't want just anyone to have, especially if their intent is malicious.
A good argument. Personally, I keep all of my phone contacts off of my phone, a bit more work, but less to worry about.
 
  • #412
Evo said:
A good argument. Personally, I keep all of my phone contacts off of my phone, a bit more work, but less to worry about.
Probably a good idea. I've been gradually moving away from having important information stored electronically over the past 6 months or so. I don't store things like my tax documents locally on my computer anymore. So many programs are linked to "the cloud" now that I'm not sure I trust having that type of information in a place I can't control, or that cloud-linked programs might have some vulnerability that could allow local access to my machine.
 
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  • #413
Astronuc said:
Apple still doesn’t know how the FBI hacked iPhone without help
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apple-remains-dark-fbi-hacked-072634235.html

I don't think that's completely the case with Apple. They (most companies do) have an internal group to find vulnerabilities in their products so the likely hardware exploit used in this case is unlikely to work with the latest phones and future models will be even more secure due to this case publishing possible hacks.
 
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  • #414
Dembadon said:
Probably a good idea. I've been gradually moving away from having important information stored electronically over the past 6 months or so. I don't store things like my tax documents locally on my computer anymore. So many programs are linked to "the cloud" now that I'm not sure I trust having that type of information in a place I can't control, or that cloud-linked programs might have some vulnerability that could allow local access to my machine.
Yeah, I don't trust that the information I share in the "cloud" is secure.
 
  • #415
Evo said:
Yeah, I don't trust that the information I share in the "cloud" is secure.
People may or may not remember the celebrity phone hacks by tabloids a few years back:
http://www.theguardian.com/media/20...o-pay-1-2m-to-celebrity-phone-hacking-victims
You may not be a celebrity, but anyone can pick up a stalker, or someone trying to run some kind of scam. If you keep any texts or voicemails, there's probably a way to get into them.
 
  • #416
Evo said:
Yeah, I don't trust that the information I share in the "cloud" is secure.

E-filed income tax?
I'm glad to be a small target . It's the best one can do these days.
 
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  • #417
The company that apparently helped the FBI. Little-Known Japan Firm Helping the FBI Crack iPhones

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...nown-japan-firm-helping-the-fbi-crack-iphones

Cellebrite Mobile Synchronization Ltd. worked with the FBI to crack an iPhone connected in a terrorist attack, according to people familiar with the matter, who asked not to be identified as the matter is private. Neither Cellebrite nor the FBI have confirmed the link, and a spokesman from parent Sun Corp. on Thursday said the company isn’t able to comment on specific criminal cases.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...work-with-israel-s-cellebrite-to-crack-iphone
The FBI was already a Cellebrite client before this project, the people said, who asked not to be identified as the matter is private. Cellebrite, founded in 1999, is a unit of Japan’s Sun Corporation.
 
  • #419
The FBI’s ability to hack into an iPhone may not last much longer
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/fbi-ability-hack-iphone-may-001209987.html

I presume that iPhones already in possession of law enforcement will be unlocked, since they will not be updated with a fix for the flaw. New iPhones will probably have more robust security. At least one would think.
 
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