Compositeness Limits -- Have We Reached Rock Bottom?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the limits of compositeness for quarks and leptons, particularly focusing on the mass scales required for these particles to be considered composite. The scope includes theoretical implications, comparisons with known composite particles, and the challenges posed by current models.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants reference the Particle Data Group - 2017 Review, which suggests strong lower limits for the mass scales of quark and lepton compositeness, indicating these limits are model-dependent and well into the TeV range.
  • It is noted that electrons, up quarks, and down quarks do not disintegrate even at energies significantly exceeding their rest masses, which raises questions about their compositeness.
  • Participants discuss the maximum ratios of disintegration energy to rest mass for previously discovered composite entities, highlighting the challenges for Standard-Model elementary fermions to be composite.
  • There is a theoretical analogy drawn between light mesons, like pions, and the potential compositeness of leptons and quarks, suggesting a relationship between their masses and the QCD energy scale.
  • Some participants assert that pions are special due to their status as Goldstone bosons, which leads to discussions about the implications for the masses of Standard Model particles.
  • Concerns are raised about the feasibility of the proposed mechanisms for compositeness without supersymmetry, with some participants arguing that it may be virtually impossible even with it.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the possibility of quarks and leptons being composite, with some proposing theoretical frameworks while others challenge these ideas, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations related to model dependencies and the assumptions underlying the proposed mechanisms for compositeness, which are not universally accepted among participants.

lpetrich
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Particle Data Group - 2017 Review has some strong lower limits for the mass scales of possible quark and lepton compositeness, or at least the compositeness of the easier-to-study ones, like up and down quarks and also electrons. The limits are well into the TeV range, though they are somewhat model-dependent.

This means that electrons, up quarks, and down quarks do not start to disintegrate even after applying energies a million times their rest masses.

Here are the maximum ratios of disintegration energy to rest mass for entities previously discovered to have been composite:
  • Atoms: 10^(-8) (ionization of hydrogen atoms)
  • Nuclei: 10^(-3) (dissociation of deuterons)
  • Hadrons: 1 (deep inelastic scattering off of nucleons)
That makes it very difficult for Standard-Model elementary fermions to be composite: they are much less massive than their compositeness energy scales.

But there is a theoretical analogy: light mesons, like pions. Their mass is roughly sqrt(mq*mc) where mq is the quarks' average mass and mc = QCD energy scale. For mq << mc, m(meson) << mc also. So if the electron has a compositeness scale of about 1 TeV, then the electron's constituents would have to have masses around 1 eV.
 
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Pions are special because they are goldstones. That means there is an inexact symmetry that is driving their masses near zero. (If the symmetry were exact, they would be massless)
 
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Vanadium 50 said:
Pions are special because they are goldstones. That means there is an inexact symmetry that is driving their masses near zero. (If the symmetry were exact, they would be massless)
So in the scenario that I'd mentioned, the Standard Model's leptons and quarks are all pseudo-Goldstone particles, like the pion.
 
That's starting to sound like a personal theory. So far as I know, this is impossible without supersymmetry and virtually impossible with it.
 
Vanadium 50 said:
That's starting to sound like a personal theory. So far as I know, this is impossible without supersymmetry and virtually impossible with it.
Looks like that mechanism cannot work. So it'll be very hard for electrons and up and down quarks to be composite.
 

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