Compute Ideal Generated by Matrix 3x3

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the computation of the ideal generated by a specific 3x3 matrix, particularly focusing on the implications of this ideal in the context of matrix algebra. Participants explore the nature of the generated ideal, its properties, and the rank of the resulting matrices.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes that the ideal generated by the matrix $\begin{bmatrix}1&0&0\\0&0&0\\0&0&0 \end{bmatrix}$ results in matrices of the form $\begin{bmatrix}aa'&ab'&ac'\\da'&db'&dc'\\ga'&gb'&gc' \end{bmatrix}$.
  • Another participant asserts that this method is correct but not very informative, stating that the ideal is the whole algebra of $3\times3$ matrices, noting that the algebra has no nontrivial ideals.
  • A later reply clarifies that while the product yields rank 1 matrices, these do not form an ideal without considering their sums.
  • One participant questions whether the rank of the matrix is always 1, suggesting a need for further clarification.
  • Another participant explains that any elementary matrix can be produced by the product of the generated ideal and that all 3x3 matrices can be obtained through $R$-linear combinations of these elementary matrices.
  • There is a discussion about the definition of the generated ideal, with one participant emphasizing that ideals must be closed under addition.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the generated ideal, with some asserting it encompasses all 3x3 matrices while others highlight that only rank 1 matrices are produced initially, leading to an unresolved debate on the complete characterization of the ideal.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions about the ring from which the matrix entries are drawn, as well as the implications of closure under addition for the generated ideal.

Fermat1
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Compute the ideal generated by $\begin{bmatrix}1&0&0\\0&0&0\\0&0&0 \end{bmatrix}$

My answer:
$\begin{bmatrix}a&b&c\\d&e&f\\g&h&i \end{bmatrix}$$\begin{bmatrix}1&0&0\\0&0&0\\0&0&0 \end{bmatrix}$$\begin{bmatrix}a'&b'&c'\\d'&e'&f'\\g'&h'&i' \end{bmatrix}$=$\begin{bmatrix}aa'&ab'&ac'\\da'&db'&dc'\\ga'&gb'&gc' \end{bmatrix}$.

Is this correct, and is there a nicer way to express the matrices in the ideal?
 
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Fermat said:
Compute the ideal generated by $\begin{bmatrix}1&0&0\\0&0&0\\0&0&0 \end{bmatrix}$

My answer:
$\begin{bmatrix}a&b&c\\d&e&f\\g&h&i \end{bmatrix}$$\begin{bmatrix}1&0&0\\0&0&0\\0&0&0 \end{bmatrix}$$\begin{bmatrix}a'&b'&c'\\d'&e'&f'\\g'&h'&i' \end{bmatrix}$=$\begin{bmatrix}aa'&ab'&ac'\\da'&db'&dc'\\ga'&gb'&gc' \end{bmatrix}$.

Is this correct, and is there a nicer way to express the matrices in the ideal?
That is a correct, but not very informative, way of saying that the ideal is the whole algebra of $3\times3$ matrices. In fact, that algebra has no nontrivial ideals, so the ideal generated by any nonzero element is the whole algebra.

Edit. As later comments point out, you only get the rank 1 matrices this way. These do not form an ideal: you then need to take sums of them to get the full ideal.
 
Last edited:
Wouldn't the rank of the matrix always be 1?
 
The product given in the first post is indeed of rank one, yes.

However, any elementary matrix $E_{ij}$ can be produced by such a product by multiplying by $E_{1j}$ on the right, and $E_{i1}$ on the left.

Since any possible matrix can be obtained by $R$-linear combinations of the $E_{ij}$ and all such $R$-linear combinations of elements of the ideal are in the ideal, we obtain all 3x3 matrices.

Perhaps more elegantly, we have (writing $J$ for the ideal):

$E_{11},E_{22},E_{33} \in J \implies I = E_{11} + E_{22} + E_{33} \in J \implies J = \text{Mat}_3(R)$

where $R$ is the commutative ring we are taking our matrix entries from (which may, or may not be, a field, the original poster does not say).
 
Opalg said:
That is a correct, but not very informative, way of saying that the ideal is the whole algebra of $3\times3$ matrices. In fact, that algebra has no nontrivial ideals, so the ideal generated by any nonzero element is the whole algebra.

Edit. As later comments point out, you only get the rank 1 matrices this way. These do not form an ideal: you then need to take sums of them to get the full ideal.

So what's the generated ideal then? I thought by definition the generated ideal is the set of things of the form axa'
 
Fermat said:
So what's the generated ideal then? I thought by definition the generated ideal is the set of things of the form axa'

Ideals must be closed under addition...
 

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