Conceptual Question on Elementary Thermodynamics

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around a thermodynamics problem involving the conservation of energy in a system influenced by external forces. The original poster presents a scenario with a gas in a container affected by a movable piston, questioning the implications of work done and changes in internal energy.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to reconcile the conservation of energy with their observations about internal energy changes in a gas system. Participants explore the definitions of the system and the role of external forces, particularly regarding friction and the inclusion of the piston.

Discussion Status

Participants are actively questioning the assumptions made about the system's boundaries and the presence of external forces. Some guidance has been offered regarding the definitions of the system and the effects of friction, but no consensus has been reached on the implications for internal energy changes.

Contextual Notes

There is a mention of an attachment that is not visible, which may contain additional context relevant to the discussion. The participants are considering scenarios with and without friction, impacting their interpretations of energy changes.

Ricky2357
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1. The problem statement

Suppose we have a thermodynamical system whose state is modified by external forces. This results in a change of the internal energy of the system. If we designate by [tex]W_{ext}[/tex] the total work done during the process by the external forces acting on the particles of the system, then the conservation of energy requires that
[tex]\Delta U=W_{ext}[/tex]

In the classic example of the container filled with gas whose volume can change by means
of a movable piston, the particles of the gas collide with the surface of the piston causing it to move by a small distance [tex]\Delta x[/tex] (see figure attached).
Since no external forces act on this particular system we must have
[tex]W_{ext}=0[/tex] and thus [tex]\Delta U=0[/tex]. But this can not be since the internal energy of the system clearly changes.

2. Relevant Questions

Where is the flaw in my thinking?
 

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Most of your reasoning is fine. Your attachment isn't visible yet, but if you've defined your system as the gas only, then the piston's mass and friction result in external forces. If you've defined your system to include the piston, then the internal energy of the system doesn't change; the gas cools slightly and the piston heats up slightly from friction. Does this help?
 
If we define the system as the container, the gas and the piston and assume that there are not any forces of friction present, then no external forces act on this system, yet the internal energy of the system changes.Is this right?
 
No, the internal energy doesn't change. How could it?

EDIT: To be more clear, the gas would be cooler and the piston would be moving.
 
Last edited:

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