Confusion about Frame Dragging

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of frame dragging in the context of a rotating black hole, particularly focusing on the behavior of a chain and a bowling ball in equatorial orbits. Participants explore the implications of frame dragging on the vertical orientation of a chain as it approaches the ergosphere and the differences in weight experienced by objects in different rotational directions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that a chain released above the ergosphere will initially remain vertical, but question what happens as it approaches the ergosphere, suggesting it cannot remain vertical due to frame dragging effects.
  • Others clarify that the portion of the chain within the ergosphere cannot remain vertical without exceeding the speed of light, leading to a break in the chain.
  • There is a contention regarding the nature of stress on the chain, with some arguing that the stress is not infinite until the chain touches the ergosphere, while others claim that stress increases without bound as the chain approaches the boundary.
  • Some participants propose that the concept of "force" is not applicable in general relativity, emphasizing the role of spacetime in determining the behavior of the chain.
  • There are discussions about the implications of induction forces acting on the chain, with some suggesting that these forces will pull the chain in the spinward direction when it is moved.
  • Mathematical approaches are suggested for confirming the behavior of the bowling ball and chain, involving calculations of four-accelerations in Boyer-Lindquist coordinates.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about the applicability of the Wikipedia claims regarding the vertical orientation of the chain as it is lowered further into the ergosphere.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the behavior of the chain and the implications of frame dragging, particularly concerning the vertical orientation and the nature of forces involved. The discussion remains unresolved with no consensus reached.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of force in general relativity and the complexity of the mathematical treatment of the problem, which some participants find challenging to articulate clearly.

  • #31
nomadreid said:
Thanks, Ibix. so

I would end up spiraling into the black hole?
I wouldn't like to take a position on whether you would complete a full circle without doing some maths, but basically yes. If I drop you from a great distance from a non-rotating hole you will always be between me and the hole as you fall in. But with a rotating hole you would be dragged spinwards to some extent.

In practice the accretion disc around the hole would have a straightforward frictional drag effect as well (not to mention cooking you extra-crispy). I suspect that would tend to make you orbit more than a vacuum GR analysis would suggest, but I haven't done the maths for that either.
 
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  • #32
Many thanks for that, Ibix. That makes sense, even without the calculations. (The various things that can, as you put it, cook an astronaut extra-crispy, seem to do away with all science-fiction scenarios about an astronaut entering the event horizon alive.)
 
  • #33
tzimie said:
Yesterday I learned that there may be ergospeheres around neutron stars too.

From where? Please give a reference.
 
  • #34
nomadreid said:
if there were no significant frame dragging around a supermassive black hole, then where do the jets of those who have them (OK, only a small portion, but nonetheless) come from?

The jets are believed to be coming out along the rotation axis of the hole; as I understand it, frame dragging basically collimates them to shoot out that way. But that is frame dragging considered globally, on the scale of the entire hole: as @Ibix said, that is very different from the difference in frame dragging between the feet and the head of an astronaut in a free-fall trajectory near the hole.
 
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