Confusion about the equation KE=1/2mv^2

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the circumstances under which the kinetic energy equation KE = 1/2mv² can be applied. Participants explore various scenarios, including constant velocity on frictionless surfaces, the role of forces, and the implications of work done in different contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the applicability of the kinetic energy equation when an object moves at constant velocity on a frictionless surface, suggesting that no work is done in this case.
  • Others argue that while constant velocity requires no net force in a frictionless scenario, accelerating from rest to that velocity does require work, which can be expressed as 1/2mv².
  • One participant clarifies that the kinetic energy equation applies universally to a particle with speed v, regardless of how that speed is attained.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the work done is actually the energy difference between two states, represented by W = 1/2m(v_f² - v_i²), and that this equation is applicable when there is acceleration.
  • Some participants note that in the presence of friction, work done against friction does not contribute to a change in kinetic energy, but rather converts energy into heat.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of forces involved when an object experiences no change in kinetic energy, with some suggesting that opposing forces can do work that cancels out.
  • One participant highlights the importance of correctly describing the system to avoid incorrect conclusions regarding work and energy.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the conditions under which the kinetic energy equation is applicable, particularly regarding constant velocity and the role of friction. No consensus is reached on the implications of these scenarios.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the potential for confusion regarding energy conservation and the definition of work, emphasizing the need for careful consideration of the forces and conditions involved in each scenario.

Sangari Indiraj
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Summary: at what circumstances the kinetic energy equation can be applied?

My teacher says that, when a constant force is applied and the object moves by d meters, then the work done can be expressed 1/2mv2 where v is the final velocity.
But, what happens if the object moves in a constant velocity in a frictionless surface? can we apply the kinetic energy equation at this time?
In what circumstances this equation is applicable?
 
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Sangari Indiraj said:
Summary: at what circumstances the kinetic energy equation can be applied?

But, what happens if the object moves in a constant velocity in a frictionless surface? c
In the frictionless case, there is no force and no energy required to move at constant velocity.

But accelerating from zero to constant velocity v requires force, and the energy needed will be 1/2 mv2.

But with friction it does take force to move at constant velocity. That uses energy, but the energy in that case goes to heat at the surfaces experiencing friction, not in kinetic energy.

So when working with Newton's Laws, you must be careful to correctly describe the system. An incorrect description leads you to an incorrect conclusion.
 
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Sangari Indiraj said:
In what circumstances this equation is applicable?
In all cases. The KE of a particle with speed ##v## is always ##\frac 1 2 mv^2##. This may be a constant speed or an instantaneous speed. Note that speed is the magnitude of velocity, which is in general a vector.

How the particle attained the speed ##v## is another question.
 
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Sangari Indiraj said:
My teacher says that, when a constant force is applied and the object moves by d meters, then the work done can be expressed 1/2mv2 where v is the final velocity.
That is not entirely true. The work done is:
$$W = \frac{1}{2}m(v_f^2 - v_i^2)$$
From the basic definition of work:
$$dE= Fdx$$
Assuming that the body is accelerating:
$$dE = madx$$
$$dE = m\left(\frac{v}{dt}\right)dx$$
$$dE = mv\left(\frac{dx}{dt}\right)$$
$$dE = mvdv$$
$$\int_{E_f}^{E_i} dE = \int_{v_i}^{v_f} mvdv$$
$$E_f - E_i = \frac{1}{2}mv_f^2 - \frac{1}{2}mv_i^2$$
$$W = \frac{1}{2}m(v_f^2 - v_i^2)$$
So the work done is really the energy difference between two states.
Sangari Indiraj said:
But, what happens if the object moves in a constant velocity in a frictionless surface?
If the velocity is constant, you can see from the equation that there is no work done ... anyway related to acceleration. If there was friction ##F_f## AND a constant velocity - i.e. there is a displacement ##\Delta x## - then there would be work done that amount to ##F_f\Delta x##.
Sangari Indiraj said:
In what circumstances this equation is applicable?
When there is an acceleration. Used in the simple form you presented (##\frac{1}{2}mv^2##), it represents the potential kinetic energy that could be extracted by decelerating the object to a stop.
 
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jack action said:
That is not entirely true. The work done is:
$$W = \frac{1}{2}m(v_f^2 - v_i^2)$$
From the basic definition of work:
$$dE= Fdx$$
Assuming that the body is accelerating:
$$dE = madx$$
$$dE = m\left(\frac{v}{dt}\right)dx$$
$$dE = mv\left(\frac{dx}{dt}\right)$$
$$dE = mvdv$$
$$\int_{E_f}^{E_i} dE = \int_{v_i}^{v_f} mvdv$$
$$E_f - E_i = \frac{1}{2}mv_f^2 - \frac{1}{2}mv_i^2$$
$$W = \frac{1}{2}m(v_f^2 - v_i^2)$$
So the work done is really the energy difference between two states.

If the velocity is constant, you can see from the equation that there is no work done ... anyway related to acceleration. If there was friction ##F_f## AND a constant velocity - i.e. there is a displacement ##\Delta x## - then there would be work done that amount to ##F_f\Delta x##.

When there is an acceleration. Used in the simple form you presented (##\frac{1}{2}mv^2##), it represents the potential kinetic energy that could be extracted by decelerating the object to a stop.
So, when an object moves in a constant velocity, in a frictional surface, the work we do is the work done against friction instead of change in kinetic energy?
 
Sangari Indiraj said:
So, when an object moves in a constant velocity, in a frictional surface, the work we do is the work done against friction instead of change in kinetic energy?
Yes.
 
Sangari Indiraj said:
So, when an object moves in a constant velocity, in a frictional surface, the work we do is the work done against friction instead of change in kinetic energy?
Yes. The definition of work is a force that moves. It doesn't specify the origin of the force.

If an object accelerates or decelerates (i.e. change in kinetic energy), there must be a force implicated somehow. It's really that force that does the work (not the ##m\vec{a}## vector which is only reacting to the force).

If two opposing but equal forces act on a moving body (i.e. no change in kinetic energy), each does work but cancels each other out (work can be negative), so no work done on the body as a whole.
 
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Sangari Indiraj said:
In what circumstances this equation is applicable?
You should be confident that energy is always conserved, and that in mechanics work = force * distance. But it is easy to get confused about where the energy goes, or about how much work is done by which object. If the theories appear to be wrong, then you made a mistake somewhere.
 
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