Confusion when considering pV=nRT in Two Balloon experiment

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Two-Balloon Experiment, specifically addressing the relationship between air pressure and rubber tension in balloons connected by a tube. Participants explore the implications of pressure equalization, the role of rubber tension, and the interpretation of graphical representations of pressure and volume in the context of the experiment.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the pressure that must equalize is the pressure in the rubber of the balloon or the air pressure within the balloons.
  • There is a claim that equal rubber pressure does not necessarily imply equal air pressure, as the relationship between air pressure and rubber tension is complex.
  • Participants discuss the implications of the balloon's radius of curvature on the relationship between internal air pressure and the tension in the rubber material.
  • One participant suggests that the final volume of the system should be considered greater than the sum of the initial volumes of the balloons, as high-pressure air from the smaller balloon expands into the larger one.
  • There is a debate regarding the interpretation of a graph that is said to depict either the air pressure in the balloon or the tension in the rubber, with some arguing for the former and others for the latter.
  • Some participants propose that the graph shows how air pressure changes as the balloon expands, influenced by the material properties of rubber.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of pressure equalization between the balloons, the relationship between rubber tension and air pressure, and the interpretation of graphical data. No consensus is reached on these points.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that assumptions about the relationship between rubber tension and air pressure may not hold universally, and there are unresolved questions about the mathematical relationships involved in the system.

phantomvommand
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This is the Two-Balloon Experiment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-balloon_experiment#cite_note-MW78-1

Screenshot 2022-07-02 at 11.24.49 PM.png

The claim on Wikipedia which I am a little confused over is that when 2 balloons (at the 2 red points) are connected via a tube, the smaller balloon at a higher pressure would push air into the larger balloon. Eventually, the pressure should become equal in both balloons.

My first question is this:
According to the article, the "pressure" that must become equal eventually is the pressure in the rubber of the balloon. However, shouldn't it be the pressure of the air in the 2 balloons?

Assuming that equal rubber pressure implies equal air pressure,
considering the system as a whole:
P1V1 + P2V2 must be equal to P(V1 + V2), where P is the final equal air pressure. However, P1 > P and P2 > P, so the equality cannot hold. (LHS > RHS)

I understand that I have not accounted for the changes in energy when the rubber balloons acquire a more stable state (at lower pressure). But if this were accounted for, we can see that:
U1 + U2 + Rubber energy initial = U3 + Rubber energy final, where U1, U2, and U3 are the internal energies of the air in the small balloon, bigger balloon and final state.
Since U1, U2, U3 are analogous to P1V1, P1V2, and P(V1+V2), and rubber energy final > initial, LHS > RHS.

Where have I gone wrong?
 
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phantomvommand said:
However, shouldn't it be the pressure of the air in the 2 balloons?
True. Once the two balloons have equilibrated, there is only one volume, so the air pressure in the two balloons must be equal. The radii of the balloons will be different, as will be the tension in the rubber.
phantomvommand said:
Assuming that equal rubber pressure implies equal air pressure, considering the system as a whole:
That is a false assumption.
The balloon radius of curvature relates the air pressure to the tension in the rubber material.
 
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Baluncore said:
The radii of the balloons will be different, as will be the tension in the rubber.
However, the wiki article seems to suggest that the final tension in the rubber will become equal.
<The air flow ceases when the two balloons have equal pressure, with one on the left branch of the pressure curve (r<rp) and one on the right branch (r>rp)>

rp refers to the peak rubber pressure in my original post.
 
phantomvommand said:
<The air flow ceases when the two balloons have equal pressure, with one on the left branch of the pressure curve (r<rp) and one on the right branch (r>rp)>
The surface tension in the rubber balloon opposes the difference between internal and external air pressure. The rubber membrane has no pressure, it has tension.
Surface tension in the rubber, is perpendicular to the differential air pressure.
 
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Baluncore said:
The surface tension in the rubber balloon opposes the difference between internal and external air pressure. The rubber membrane has no pressure, it has tension.
Surface tension in the rubber, is perpendicular to the differential air pressure.
So the graph is actually the pressure of air in the balloon as it expands?

However, explanations online all claim that the graph represents the tension in the rubber...

And if it is the pressure of air in the balloon, then:
considering the system as a whole:
P1V1 + P2V2 must be equal to P(V1 + V2), where P is the final equal air pressure. However, P1 > P and P2 > P, so the equality cannot hold. (LHS > RHS)
 
phantomvommand said:
P1V1 + P2V2 must be equal to P(V1 + V2), ...
I do not think so.
The final volume is V, not (V1 + V2). V will be greater than (V1 + V2), since high pressure air from the smaller balloon will expand as it migrates to the larger, lower pressure balloon.
 
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Baluncore said:
I do not think so.
The final volume is V, not (V1 + V2). V will be greater than (V1 + V2), since high pressure air from the smaller balloon will expand as it migrates to the larger, lower pressure balloon.
Thanks for this.

Would my interpretation of the graph as follows be correct:

- the graph actually depicts the air pressure in the balloon.
- the explanation of the air pressure is due to the material properties of rubber (stiff at first — where the increase in number of moles of air leads to P being the main variable increased, but then at some point when rubber expands more easily, V accounts for the main increase in nRT, while P in fact decreases but PV as a whole increases)
 
phantomvommand said:
- the graph actually depicts the air pressure in the balloon.
Correct. The pressure is plotted against the relative radius of the balloon.

The explanation should include the changing thickness, and the radius of curvature of the membrane.
 

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