Connect grid tied solar inverter to DC+ Bus of VFD?

In summary: I have been thinking about that for a long time, but I have never had the courage to try it.There are numerous commercial solutions meant to tie homes with rooftop solar to the grid. They integrate the inverter and auxiliary functions into the same box and call it "interface". Homeowners typically buy or rent the interface from the power company.But I don't know of any similar commercial packages to interface AC generators to the grid. That is probably because AC generators come in all sizes from kW to GW.
  • #36
@looking
I agree that the wind inverter approach is definitely worth looking into. Perhaps talking to the manufacturer about supplying it with your generator is a good next step. On the surface I don't see any problem with that approach, that's why I suggest contacting the manufacturer.

As for those that had a concern about supplying such an inverter with 'too much current', you can be pretty sure that the built-in overload protection won't allow that to happen!

Many of us on this site are rightly very conservative in our recommendations, if we haven't done/studied something in minute detail we cautiously say 'No'. Often that is the best course of action, but not necessarily always so. For instance, if you were a high-school student I would not be making this post.

See what the manufacturer says and please let us know. We like to learn too!

Cheers,
Tom
 
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  • #37
looking said:
But if you reread post #27; you may conclude that I am onto something that just hasn't apparently been thought out previously within the internet I am familiar with.

Could you clarify what hasn't been previously thought out in post 27?

I'm still not sure what overall you want to achieve, for example do you want 100% of your generator to go to the grid? Do you want excess power to go to the grid?
 
  • #38
Tom.G said:
@looking
I agree that the wind inverter approach is definitely worth looking into. Perhaps talking to the manufacturer about supplying it with your generator is a good next step. On the surface I don't see any problem with that approach, that's why I suggest contacting the manufacturer.

As for those that had a concern about supplying such an inverter with 'too much current', you can be pretty sure that the built-in overload protection won't allow that to happen!

Many of us on this site are rightly very conservative in our recommendations, if we haven't done/studied something in minute detail we cautiously say 'No'. Often that is the best course of action, but not necessarily always so. For instance, if you were a high-school student I would not be making this post.

See what the manufacturer says and please let us know. We like to learn too!

Cheers,
Tom
Thank you Tom. Very very well summarized. I did talk to the ABB help line (just before joining this forum) although all staff were in a meeting; I was promised that someone would phone back. No response yet, but I do have patience and also their phone number. And I have learned; and am still learning from this thread.
Whilst not "cock sure" about knowing everything about anything, rest assured that I could have become an "expert" in most fields I may have chosen; but the limits of time and interest dictate not pursuing all interesting topics at one time.

I'm pretty sure I will eventually get a standards approved certified solution and it may well be "simply" using a 6, 12 or 18 pulse rectifier (with accompanying DC smoothing capacitors and circuitry);connected to a "grid tied wind inverter"

I will certainly post any response from respected manufacturers supplying such electrical equipment; because now it appears others believe that this is not a unique and first time time quest for a solution. Heck it may even have fairly wide application.
 
  • #39
Baluncore said:
This thread began by discussing the application of a solar grid-tie inverter as the grid interface.You have now switched to a wind inverter solution. I have no experience with wind solutions so I cannot help you with that. When you departed from solar solutions I backed off, there are others better placed to advise you. Our experience makes us more careful, your inexperience allows you to believe that anything is possible.

Your admitted lack of expertise in the electrical engineering field makes it unlikely that you will be able to safely implement either system in the short term. You are certainly not the first to think of the idea. If it was as simple as plugging blocks together, then it should have appeared on the market long ago.

This is not intended to be a smart response. But I do think that within post #27 above; you will find a direct quote of the Systems Description of the Aurora "Grid tie wind inverter system". Now an electrical engineer would have drafted that manufacturers literature (now ABB which does know it's business) that I quoted. As also quoted that User and installation Manual says it is "intended to provide installers and users with all the necessary information about installation, operation, and use of Aurora Wind inverters."

Now I can comprehend every last word in what repeated from that quoted section.

I would think its a good short summary for anyone who has no experience with wind solutions. It should only take the time to read maybe 300 words and I highly recommend this short read to anyone.
 
  • #40
essenmein said:
Could you clarify what hasn't been previously thought out in post 27?

I'm still not sure what overall you want to achieve, for example do you want 100% of your generator to go to the grid? Do you want excess power to go to the grid?
Thank you. Very reasonable request.
I want something for synchronously generated AC 3ph power that is as straight forward and uncomplicated to connect to a utility (from an electrical inspectors point of view) as the "grid tie wind inverter" that the electrical inspector would approve for a similar sized wind generation system.

I note the difference between my objective and the wind generator system is that the wind generator speed (thus voltage, frequency and power output) is much more variable. What other basic difference does anyone note when you refer to the manufacturers User and Installation manuals for the Aurora PVI-6000-OUTD-xxW) manual quoted above in my post#27).
Otherwise its a 3 phase AC power generation that needs to be rectified and fed to a grid tie inverter (in both my case and every other wind generation system using same basic theory of operation).

And for simplicity sake; I want 100% of what the "dedicated" generator output going to the grid. The constraints of available fuel supply management, any required utility transformer capacity upgrades etc. are problems I would welcome. Probably I could already help others out on those issues.
 
  • #41
looking said:
Thank you. Very reasonable request.
I want something for synchronously generated AC 3ph power that is as straight forward and uncomplicated to connect to a utility (from an electrical inspectors point of view) as the "grid tie wind inverter" that the electrical inspector would approve for a similar sized wind generation system.

I note the difference between my objective and the wind generator system is that the wind generator speed (thus voltage, frequency and power output) is much more variable. What other basic difference does anyone note when you refer to the manufacturers User and Installation manuals for the Aurora PVI-6000-OUTD-xxW) manual quoted above in my post#27).
Otherwise its a 3 phase AC power generation that needs to be rectified and fed to a grid tie inverter (in both my case and every other wind generation system using same basic theory of operation).

And for simplicity sake; I want 100% of what the "dedicated" generator output going to the grid. The constraints of available fuel supply management, any required utility transformer capacity upgrades etc. are problems I would welcome. Probably I could already help others out on those issues.

Looking at the front page for these inverters on the ABB site:
"
The PVI-6000-TL-W is ABB's most used small wind turbine inverter designed with proven high performance technology. This dual stage transformerless wind inverters offers a unique combination of high efficiency, installer-friendly design and very wide input voltage range ensuring high energy harvesting.

The high speed and precise power curve tracking algorithm allows to best match the power curve of each turbine."

These paragraphs tell you two things, 1) its two inverters, one to control the generator and provide DC link voltage, and another to push that power to the grid (dual stage transformerless). 2) Much like a solar inverter, it provides a MPPT type algorithm to maximize energy harvested from a wind turbine (High speed power curve tracking).

For a constant speed ICE powered generator you do not have a "power curve" that can be tracked. (unless part of your plan is to vary the speed of the ICE? don't know).

If you simply rectifiy the output of your generator to make a DC bus voltage you will have poor power factor and lose efficiency, maybe this is an acceptable amount though.

Personally I think the type of system you are looking at is just a regular industrial motor drive that can provide 4 quadrant control (ie motor and generate in both rotating directions, and can regenerate back to the grid, this is an absolutely normal thing.

Once you have this, you simply set a torque command opposite to the direction of rotation to load your generator.
 
  • #42
Could it be that the MPPT power curve could be a inputted as a straight line. If you know for sure that you have a very stable voltage output and current is always going to be adequate; then why not program the inverter to expect a consistent "power curve"

As an aside I do note the grid tie wind inverter is for PM synchronous generators (permanent magnet AC generation 3 phase). Of course synchronous AC 3 phase generators don't have magnets for rotor excitation like the wind generators would have. I'd think though its the AC output waveform of the generator that would be paramount. Would the reactive power component in the genset be important compared to the wind power PM generator power output?

I don't worry about poor efficiencies at this stage; but power factor is important (though the grid tie inverter should approach the 1.0 that no one will complain about)...Thanks
 
  • #43
essenmein said:
Looking at the front page for these inverters on the ABB site:
"
The PVI-6000-TL-W is ABB's most used small wind turbine inverter designed with proven high performance technology. This dual stage transformerless wind inverters offers a unique combination of high efficiency, installer-friendly design and very wide input voltage range ensuring high energy harvesting.

The high speed and precise power curve tracking algorithm allows to best match the power curve of each turbine."

These paragraphs tell you two things, 1) its two inverters, one to control the generator and provide DC link voltage, and another to push that power to the grid (dual stage transformerless).
.

Just a note to say the complete system needs also either a "rectifier" or one of ABB's "Wind Box" interfaces ( that performs the AC rectification to a DC+ Bus output; required between the wind generator and the "grid tie wind inverter"
 
  • #44
looking said:
Just a note to say the complete system needs also either a "rectifier" or one of ABB's "Wind Box" interfaces ( that performs the AC rectification to a DC+ Bus output; required between the wind generator and the "grid tie wind inverter"

Interesting, I miss read that. Seems then that basically these are not that different from a solar inverter. The "two stage" must mean a DC-DC boost type converter and inverter.

Regarding the MPPT curve, it uses how the voltage changes with current to work, if the voltage is not changing with current most likely it will just run flat out the whole time.
 
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  • #45
Now's the time to
essenmein said:
Interesting, I miss read that. Seems then that basically these are not that different from a solar inverter. The "two stage" must mean a DC-DC boost type converter and inverter.

Regarding the MPPT curve, it uses how the voltage changes with current to work, if the voltage is not changing with current most likely it will just run flat out the whole time.
Not saying I'd do this; but "most likely it will just run flat out the whole time" would be the ideal result for me if that is within operating parameters. I'll certainly ask the manufacturer's "spokesperson" when I retry that contact .

What I do know for sure is that a "grid tie solar inverter" is specifically recommended by at least one manufacturer (ABB/Power-one) as suitable only for hooking to solar photovoltaic panels (which they then immediately interestingly call FV ). Others more commonly always say PV.

But...The point I'd emphasize is that the Aurora ABB "grid tie wind inverter" is certainly meant to connect to synchronous 3 phase AC wind generators; albiet generators which contain Permanent magnets to as ABB claims; eliminate excitation power required by other synchronous generation designs (and thus partly improve efficiency up to "30%)
 
  • #46
looking said:
Not saying I'd do this; but "most likely it will just run flat out the whole time" would be the ideal result for me if that is within operating parameters. I'll certainly ask the manufacturer's "spokesperson" when I retry that contact .


Actually thinking about it, a solar inverter would do the same thing (run flat out), looking at how MPPT algos work, at time = 0 it looks at the open circuit voltage of the cell or string of cells, then it starts to pull current, and watches this voltage, at some point it reaches a knee point where increasing the current further and the voltage collapses, this is the constant current region of the cell, maximum power occurs at that knee, so an MPPT algo sits there changing the load current slightly while watching the cell voltage to ensure it is still on that peak power operating point.

pictures:
http://www.aurorasolarenergy.com/iv-curve-of-a-solar-panel/

Now you can see if your voltage does not change, it will keep increasing the current drawn from your source, but since it won't find a maximum since the voltage doesn't collapse, it will run up to its current limit and stay there.

Might be perfect for you, each time you switch on one of these inverters on you add its power rating to your output. Ie if they are 5kW inverters you switch it on and it puts the full 5kw on the grid (assuming your source can supply).
 
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  • #47
looking said:

(which they then immediately interestingly call FV ). Others more commonly always say PV.

Photo in english, Foto in german etc maybe?
 
  • #48
essenmein said:
Actually thinking about it, a solar inverter would do the same thing (run flat out), looking at how MPPT algos work, at time = 0 it looks at the open circuit voltage of the cell or string of cells, then it starts to pull current, and watches this voltage, at some point it reaches a knee point where increasing the current further and the voltage collapses, this is the constant current region of the cell, maximum power occurs at that knee, so an MPPT algo sits there changing the load current slightly while watching the cell voltage to ensure it is still on that peak power operating point.

pictures:
http://www.aurorasolarenergy.com/iv-curve-of-a-solar-panel/

Now you can see if your voltage does not change, it will keep increasing the current drawn from your source, but since it won't find a maximum since the voltage doesn't collapse, it will run up to its current limit and stay there.
Might be perfect for you, each time you switch on one of these inverters on you add its power rating to your output. Ie if they are 5kW inverters you switch it on and it puts the full 5kw on the grid (assuming your source can supply).

Might be perfect for you, each time you switch on one of these inverters on you add its power rating to your output. Ie if they are 5kW inverters you switch it on and it puts the full 5kw on the grid (assuming your source can supply.
https://www.solacity.com/power-one-abb-aurora-solar-wind-inverters/ seems to agree 100% for the Aurora "grid tie wind inverters" . It does take an isolation transformer for all except the first "inverter". Also because the transformer triggers a false "ground fault" one has to turn off the inverters monitoring for that function. They call it "stacking".

Now; back to the "rectifier"/"wind box interface" to create the DC+ Bus supply for the inverter. It is pointed out that proper fusing of the DC converter is essential (in case the diode bridge fails and AC gets directed to the inverter and let's out "magic smoke" and other serious instantaneous consequences.
I'd sure like some additional pointers to information that confirms one should not under any circumstance entertain using a VFD and its outwardly looking well filtered DC+ power supply. There's credible info (even from a manufacturer) to indicate that a diode bridge will work for the "grid tie wind inverter"

There are lots more used solar inverter than wind ones; but I'll keep the "solar inverter running flat out" in mind ( for the future) if it gets past the experimental stages.



 
  • #49
looking said:
This is not intended to be a smart response. But I do think that within post #27 above; you will find a direct quote of the Systems Description of the Aurora "Grid tie wind inverter system".
Sorry, but PF is not my first priority.
Being “spoon fed” with selected quotes from a document reduces me to what you think is important. The problem is that if you do not understand the problem, you may have unwittingly selected an inappropriate quote, which does not advance the discussion. If your quotes do not solve your problem, then why should I also waste time reading them.

If you provided an obvious link to a particular relevant document, then I could examine that document when I have time.
 
  • #50
looking said:
I'd sure like some additional pointers to information that confirms one should not under any circumstance entertain using a VFD and its outwardly looking well filtered DC+ power supply. There's credible info (even from a manufacturer) to indicate that a diode bridge will work for the "grid tie wind inverter"




Do you mean connect the phase connection of the VFD to your generator and then the DC connection to the grid tie inverter?

It would result in much less current harmonics (which reduce effy), it would only be a bit more tricky to set the control up but other wise this works fine. I feel like a broken record here but this is a common configuration, we have two Emerson drives doing just that.

Edit: Added link.
https://www.machinedesign.com/motorsdrives/regeneration-adjustable-frequency-drives
 
Last edited:
  • #51
Already done sir. Nineteen lines into Post # 27 that you quoted from above
User Manual Page 11 of 74 (PVI-6000-OUTD-UK-W Rev.1.0)

I trust that a Google search will yield exactly what I quoted; and not a word is out of place.

Baluncore said:
Sorry, but PF is not my first priority.
Being “spoon fed” with selected quotes from a document reduces me to what you think is important. The problem is that if you do not understand the problem, you may have unwittingly selected an inappropriate quote, which does not advance the discussion. If your quotes do not solve your problem, then why should I also waste time reading them.

If you provided an obvious link to a particular relevant document, then I could examine that document when I have time.
 
  • #52
looking said:
User Manual Page 11 of 74 (PVI-6000-OUTD-UK-W Rev.1.0)
I trust that a Google search will yield exactly what I quoted; and not a word is out of place.
I don't question the veracity of your quote, just it's selective relevance to a solution.
Why must everyone repeat your search? I have more important things to do, I only needed your link.
 
  • #53
essenmein said:
Do you mean connect the phase connection of the VFD to your generator and then the DC connection to the grid tie inverter?

It would result in much less current harmonics (which reduce effy), it would only be a bit more tricky to set the control up but other wise this works fine. I feel like a broken record here but this is a common configuration, we have two Emerson drives doing just that.

Edit: Added link.
https://www.machinedesign.com/motorsdrives/regeneration-adjustable-frequency-drives
Yes to your above question in your post 6132340. Kohler or Onan synchronous genset 208 VAC 3 phase output; wired to a disconnect switch and fused supply feeding a VFD sufficiently sized to supply DC Bus voltage (required under full load by inverter). This DC output wired through a fused connection (in case of rectifier failure) and fed to the DC input of the "grid tie wind inverter."



Got to keep the Max DC voltage level below 600VDC to protect the "grid tied wind inverter" so am considering the above lower voltage; which would also not initially necessitate the upgrading of the utility transformer..

A sincere thankyou for your comments. I did try the manufacturers hotline today; but could only leave a message. It looks like a leave a message and telephone tag scenario. Lots of time. .
 
  • #54
Baluncore said:
I don't question the veracity of your quote, just it's selective relevance to a solution.
Why must everyone repeat your search? I have more important things to do, I only needed your link.
Sir: You did already have the link. It seems to be becoming quite revelant; and I didn't edit or make anyone repeat the search. Like the rest of us we all can miss something the first time around.

No ill will on this end.

 
  • #55
looking said:
Yes to your above question in your post 6132340. Kohler or Onan synchronous genset 208 VAC 3 phase output; wired to a disconnect switch and fused supply feeding a VFD sufficiently sized to supply DC Bus voltage (required under full load by inverter). This DC output wired through a fused connection (in case of rectifier failure) and fed to the DC input of the "grid tie wind inverter."



Got to keep the Max DC voltage level below 600VDC to protect the "grid tied wind inverter" so am considering the above lower voltage; which would also not initially necessitate the upgrading of the utility transformer..

A sincere thankyou for your comments. I did try the manufacturers hotline today; but could only leave a message. It looks like a leave a message and telephone tag scenario. Lots of time. .

Cool, you will need some way of managing the bus voltage, invariably during load changes, the DC link voltage between the two inverters will fluctuate a lot if there is a brief power imbalance. At least for us, where the "generator" is the load machine on a dyno, so this needs to do +/-~50kW for both rotating directions (4 quadrant), and it needs to respond quickly to speed and torque changes. So we have a good sized DC link capacitance, and then there is a brake resistor bank (50kW) that switches in if the link voltage exceeds some amount (I think around 800V), ie this only happens on fast changes say when we take the test system from full power generate to full power motor and the VDF pushing the power back to the mains doesn't respond fast enough. A battery string on the DC link would be equally effective as they kind of act like a big voltage source/sink.
 
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  • #57
looking said:
Hitachi has a very good 4 page application note about "Powering Inverters from a DC Power Supply.

I had some experience along those lines back in the early 1970's.

Thermistors do a fine job against inrush current, I've used them myself.

I don't know what type of inverter you contemplate
so i'll just toss this out as a possible opportunity for that proverbial " ounce of prevention "...

In my day of forced commutation line frequency Jones choppers
http://www.completepowerelectronics.com/how-jones-chopper-works/

The running current drawn from the DC bus was a long way from steady continuous DC.
They took a huge short gulp of current at each SCR firing , something like twice rated (nameplate was about 65 amps each for our set of three),
and that was enough to modulate our 130 volt station battery bus with 'spikes' somewhat over 100 volts peak-to-peak at 120 hz.
Of course that wreaked havoc with other electronics trying to run from the same battery bus.

We added input filter capacitors to the tune of one microfarad per milliamp of rated input current .
With that sort of input capacitance on a substantial inverter you have to address inrush,
ours had a 'precharge' feature to charge the input filter slowly before energizing the main electronics...

Probably that's not an issue anymore, i don't know much about today's PWM MOSFET machines so can't say for sure
but my message is: " there's more to powering inverters than inrush ---"
so don't leap into this without awareness of the running current demand that your inverter is going to lay on your source...

old jim
 
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  • #58
jim hardy said:
I had some experience along those lines back in the early 1970's.

Thermistors do a fine job against inrush current, I've used them myself.

I don't know what type of inverter you contemplate
so i'll just toss this out as a possible opportunity for that proverbial " ounce of prevention "...

In my day of forced commutation line frequency Jones choppers
http://www.completepowerelectronics.com/how-jones-chopper-works/

The running current drawn from the DC bus was a long way from steady continuous DC.
They took a huge short gulp of current at each SCR firing , something like twice rated (nameplate was about 65 amps each for our set of three),
and that was enough to modulate our 130 volt station battery bus with 'spikes' somewhat over 100 volts peak-to-peak at 120 hz.
Of course that wreaked havoc with other electronics trying to run from the same battery bus.

We added input filter capacitors to the tune of one microfarad per milliamp of rated input current .
With that sort of input capacitance on a substantial inverter you have to address inrush,
ours had a 'precharge' feature to charge the input filter slowly before energizing the main electronics...

Probably that's not an issue anymore, i don't know much about today's PWM MOSFET machines so can't say for sure
but my message is: " there's more to powering inverters than inrush ---"
so don't leap into this without awareness of the running current demand that your inverter is going to lay on your source...

old jim
Good ideas...and cautions too

I checked the DC Bus output voltage of the VFD and found exactly the 1.41 times the 3 phase ACinput voltage expected as a DC Bus voltage. Before doing anything with tying a "grid tie inverter. I will do some more checks of the DC Bus voltage of the VFD under similar output currents (using a 3 phase motor of about same current draw ) as what a 6000W "grid tie wind inverter might take.

I'm expecting that the capacitors in the "DC converter section" of the VFD may well perform satisfactorily by themselves.

Time will tell. Thanks
 
  • #59
Just be aware the 1.41 thing is for rectification only, if the VFD or inverter is actually running and commanding negative torque for positive rotation (ie generating), then the DC bus (output) voltage cannot be determined from the AC line voltage of the connected machine.
 
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  • #60
Got a request into Ametherm regarding their new lines of MS35 Inrush current Limiters.(NTC Thermistors).They are up to 50 amp current ratings and cold resistance values of 0.5 to 20 ohms resistance. Maybe the MS35 3R030 part number will fit the bill.

I explained in detail; the "latest" proposal of what I was contemplating and we'll see if their customer support, free samples and problem solving are all top notch. Their opinion will be very interesting (when received)
 
  • #61
essenmein said:
Just be aware the 1.41 thing is for rectification only, if the VFD or inverter is actually running and commanding negative torque for positive rotation (ie generating), then the DC bus (output) voltage cannot be determined from the AC line voltage of the connected machine.
Got ya.
 
  • #62
looking said:
Got ya.
Just want to check how the DC bus responds to motors on "quick starts" as well as "ramping" up to programmed speed over a more extended time.
 
  • #63
:"Keystone Carbon" is another source of inrush current limiters...
 
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  • #64
This is my note to Ametherm

I'm seriously investigating and developing an electrical device using "US and Canadian standards approved " off shelf AC synchronous 3ph gensets ( eg Kohler ntural gas drive 30 to 60 KVA gensets) with the AC output connected to a DC converter (eg. 3 ph Variable Frequency drive like an Allen Bradley 22B-B033N104/A VFD)
I require "inrush current control" to use the DC+ common bus of the VFD to a "grid tied wind inverter" (s) (Such as Allen Bradley Aurora PVI6000-OUTD-US-W)

The reason for such an arrangement is to develop equipment that an electrical inspector would approve for a "grid tie inverter" in as simple a manner as the electrical utility would allow for wind or solar inverters.

The conventional synchronous control mechanisms are onerous when it comes to relatively small scale synchronous AC production; and my extensive web searches as well as posts to an active thread "Physics forums" (under thread "Connect Grid Tied "wind" inverter to DC+ Bus of a VFD?") has provided encouragement that there are of several commercial solutions to "grid tie" problem solved for solar and wind small scale producers... THAT COULD BE readily adapted to small scale synchronous production of power; and then "grid tied" using standards approved "grid tied inverters".
Could you please send me a free sample of two M35-DIN sufficient to provide the DC "inrush current " control for the setup described above. If successful I will certainly be a "paying" customer next time!
I believe this will be a relatively unique solution that so far eludes such small power producers (utilizing a "casing or "flare" gas which is presently more commonly vented or burned and commonly now has a reputation of a product that oil companies would actually give away to get rid of it)
 
  • #65
looking said:
Could you please send me a free sample of two M35-DIN sufficient to provide the DC "inrush current " control for the setup described above. If successful I will certainly be a "paying" customer next time!

You're asking him to research that device.
You really ought to do that yourself and tell him what is input characteristic of the load and what is output characteristic of source.
IOW
What is short circuit current available from source
What is input impedance of the load (how many microfarads, how much resistance and inductance in series with it)

because he has to size his thermistor to heat up in your desired timeframe with whatever current you tell him will flow through it.

Those things only cost a few bucks and he can't afford to invest a week in your prototype.
 
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  • #66
ABB is off the list:
Quote I am sad to report that ABB exited the Wind inverter business several years ago. We have nothing to replace the items you were inquiring about.

Good Luck UnQUOTE>

Maybe they could be a lot more forthcoming in their current web presence. Sure they list their "Legacy" products including the "Trio" line; but absolutely no where does anyone say "Not available" or "dicontinued".

And as you can see they apparently have nothing to offer other than really big stuff. Does that go for solar too?

Not being an electrical engineer...I'd say so. If you believe a web search there is probably absolutely nothing different in hardware between a solar inverter and a wind one. Its absolutely (maybe) all in the MPPT curves. In fact its damn interesting to read what Voltsys (European solution) is offering for a "Voltage Inverter Control Unit" . First glance says that all ABB Legacy wind and solar inverters can output sine wave AC.

There are apparently even manufacturers who have gotten to the stage of manufacturing combined wind/solar inverters that will allow hardwiring in both energy sources at the same time.

Go figure

But I just found an ABB offering of a 50 or 60 kW version of a PV inverter.

Its on the edge of being too big; but I will investigate. If they have got it figured out how to input synchronous AC--- rectified ---DC bus ----ABB 50-60KW ABB inverter (assuming other comment gleaned from the web are true) then all that would stand in the way is sticker shock
 
  • #67
Product manual is here

https://library.e.abb.com/public/fac0e77e6c3f4bdd953de640bcef1411/TRIO-TM-60.0-US-480-Product%20manual%20EN-Rev%20A(M000041AG).pdf

Web says its a new item and ABB brags about a 10 year warranty. Shouldn't be obsolete yet (I would think)
 
  • #68
volts-watts-3-300x188.jpg

Voltsys Inverter Control UnitFor turbine manufacturers with their own rectifier / dump load and turbine control, the Voltsys Power Control unit allows any wind or hydro turbine to work with the wide range of ABB solar inverters.

Voltsys-Unit-Control-257x300.jpg


Wind and most hydro turbines need power extracted at different rates, depending on the RPM or turbine voltage. This is known as a power curve, or power table, and usually the ratio is non-linear as per the example graph on the left. In the past, wind inverters provided the ability to enter a power curve.

The Voltsys Inverter Control Unit provides power curve control for ABB solar inverters, including the Trio and Uno DM range of inverters.

This means that solar inverters can now be used as wind inverters. The load on the generator is increased based on a generator speed or DC voltage and that power is then exported to the grid by the inverter.

The control unit also provides data logging to a micro-SD card. Programming the power curve and other settings is done by loading a setup file on the micro-SD card and a USB port allows for monitoring turbine performance on a laptop.

Manual

Please find a product manual by clicking HERE

If required the usb drivers can be downloaded HERE
 

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  • #69
Another page from voltsys.com

Wind Turbine ControllerAre you looking to purchase a wind turbine controller? If the answer to that question is yes, you should visit the Voltsys website today. Established back in 2008, the business has been designing control systems and providing inverter solutions for small wind turbines, providing clients with high-quality products for the most excellent prices in the industry. We use remote desktop to provide online support to customers worldwide, including UK, Mainland Europe, USA, Korea, Australia and New Zealand.

Here at Voltsys, we have worked closely with ABB and have modified our controllers so they override the MPPT tracking in solar inverters. Our controller stores the wind turbine power curve and manages the inverter. Using this system, we continue to supply controllers and inverters for small wind and micro-hydro systems. Our controllers enable you to have fully functional wind and hydro inverters using the ABB solar product range from 1.2kw up to 120kw, these systems can also be used in off-grid applications.

We have a truly excellent reputation for our tech support and our expertise in system design as an establishment, something we hold great pride in upholding with each of the clients we work with. If you require bespoke controller design, we can even provide consultancy and one-off design depending on your requirements. We want to ensure each of the clients we work with are 100% happy with the services we have provided, so you know we are the very best company to work with.

If you are interested in purchasing a wind turbine controller, you need to visit the Voltsys website today. Give us a call on 0151 324 5588 to have a chat with a member of our excellent customer service team. Alternatively, fill in the contact form on our website with all your relevant information and someone will get back to you as soon as possible.
 
  • #70
That could be just what you are looking for. Their manual looks nicely detailed for the installer.

(Of course as an engineering geek, I would like to see the 200pg service manual. :wink: Although I'm not sure I would find the time to read it.)
 

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