Conservation of momentum and Mechanical energy

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the concepts of conservation of momentum and mechanical energy, particularly in the context of collisions and frictional forces. Participants explore how these principles apply in different scenarios, questioning the conditions under which momentum and mechanical energy are conserved.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants examine two scenarios: a collision between two balls and a ball rolling on a table with friction. They question the conservation of momentum and mechanical energy in these contexts, raising concerns about energy loss and the role of external forces.

Discussion Status

The discussion is active, with participants providing differing perspectives on the conservation of momentum in the presence of friction and external forces. Some participants suggest that momentum is conserved when considering the entire system, while others express confusion about the implications of including external forces.

Contextual Notes

Participants are grappling with the definitions of internal and external forces, particularly in relation to the system boundaries they are considering. There is an ongoing exploration of how these definitions affect the conservation laws in the scenarios presented.

ShizukaSm
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Regarding momentum, and the "Law of conservation of linear momentum", my book states that it's more general than mechanical energy, since mechanical energy is only conserved for conservative forces, while linear momentum is conserved independent of the forces, as long as the sum of external forces is zero.

This really confuses me. Let's look at two situations:

Situation 1) Collision. When a collision between two balls occur, a vibration in the air is produced (the sound wave) which wastes a part of the energy, and thus mechanical energy isn't conserved. On the other hand, there are no external forces, so momentum is conserved.

Is this reasoning correct?

Situation 2) A ball is rolling on a table. There is friction. Ok, so, let's pick up our system as ball + table, in this case our momentum would be (Ball Momentum = x and Table momentum = 0), the friction force would be internal to the system, and yet we would lose momentum.
Now, for the mechanical energy part, friction would produce a certain heat, which would waste energy, and thus mechanical energy would also be reduced.

Is my second reasoning correct? And also, why isn't momentum conserved?
 
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In the second case, momentum is conserved. Friction transfers the ball's momentum to the table, it does not just disappear.
 
How come? The table won't move, it's velocity will remain as 0.
 
ShizukaSm said:
The table won't move, it's velocity will remain as 0.
The table is attached to the earth. External forces come into play.
 
Doc Al said:
The table is attached to the earth. External forces come into play.

Fair enough, this will maybe seen stupid, but I really want to understand that, so let's pick up the system (earth + ball), in this case Earth's forces on the table would be internal to the system.
 
ShizukaSm said:
Fair enough, this will maybe seen stupid, but I really want to understand that, so let's pick up the system (earth + ball), in this case Earth's forces on the table would be internal to the system.
Sure. If you include everything, then the total momentum will be conserved.
 
ShizukaSm said:
How come? The table won't move, it's velocity will remain as 0.

Why would the table not move? It is much like the ball itself, it is just bigger, but still it is on some surface and there is friction in between. It will get some momentum, but because it so much heavier than the ball, its velocity will be very small, and its momentum will be transferred to the surface it is on very quickly.
 

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