Constants of motion symmetric spacetimes

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the constants of motion in symmetric spacetimes, particularly focusing on Schwarzschild spacetime and the implications of Killing vector fields (KVFs) for conserved quantities. Participants explore the relationship between these conserved quantities, Noether's Theorem, and the concept of energy at infinity, as well as the implications of spacelike KVFs for angular momentum.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that for a symmetric spacetime with a timelike KVF, there are conserved quantities related to the motion of freefalling test particles.
  • It is proposed that the energy at infinity is a conserved quantity associated with the timelike KVF, interpreted as the energy measured by an observer at rest with respect to the source of gravity.
  • Questions arise regarding whether the statement about the observer at rest with respect to the source of gravity is invariant or coordinate dependent.
  • Participants discuss the equivalence of different formulations of four-momentum, particularly in the context of MTW's definition as a covector.
  • Some participants mention that the three spacelike KVFs in Schwarzschild spacetime correspond to symmetries of the 2-sphere and raise questions about the constants of motion associated with them.
  • It is suggested that the scalar products of geodesics' 4-velocity with the spacelike KVFs represent angular momentum.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the invariance of certain statements and the interpretation of conserved quantities, indicating that multiple competing views remain. The discussion does not reach a consensus on these points.

Contextual Notes

Participants assume a spacetime with a given Lorentz metric for their discussions, which is necessary for defining the relationships between vectors and covectors. There are also unresolved questions regarding the implications of the definitions and the nature of the observers involved.

cianfa72
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TL;DR
About the constants of motion associated with spacetime symmetries (KVF)
As discussed in this thread, for a symmetric spacetime (i.e. with a KVF) there are conserved quantities as constants of motion.

For instance in Schwarzschild spacetime there is a timelike KVF, hence for example the contraction of a geodesic tangent vector (4-velocity) and the timelike KVF doesn't change along a geodesic.

As said in that post the existence of conserved quantities is related to Noether's Theorem.

For Schwarzschild spacetime what does mean that Energy at infinity is conserved as constant of motion associated to the timelike KVF ?

Thanks.
 
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Let a freefalling test particle have four-momentum ##p^a## and the timelike Killing field be ##\xi^a##. ##p^a\xi_a## is a constant of freefall motion. Since in the limit as ##r\rightarrow\infty## we get flat spacetime with ##\xi^a## as the four velocity of an observer at rest with respect to the source of gravity, this constant is the energy measured by such an observer (or minus that, depending on metric signature convention) - hence it's called "the energy at infinity".

You can replace ##p^a## with four-velocity ##u^a## and you get energy per unit mass instead, but it can still be called the energy at infinity, so watch your units.

In the case ##|u_a\xi^a|<1## the test particle does not reach infinity, but the name is still used.
 
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Ibix said:
Let a freefalling test particle have four-momentum ##p^a## and the timelike Killing field be ##\xi^a##. ##p^a\xi_a## is a constant of freefall motion. Since in the limit as ##r\rightarrow\infty## we get flat spacetime with ##\xi^a## as the four velocity of an observer at rest with respect to the source of gravity, this constant is the energy measured by such an observer (or minus that, depending on metric signature convention) - hence it's called "the energy at infinity".
Is your statement "observer at rest w.r.t. the source of gravity" an invariant one (i.e. coordinate independent) or isn't ?

Ibix said:
You can replace ##p^a## with four-velocity ##u^a## and you get energy per unit mass instead, but it can still be called the energy at infinity, so watch your units.
MTW defines the four-momentum ##p## as a covector (1-form). Are the two formulation actually equivalent?
 
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cianfa72 said:
Is your statement "observer at rest w.r.t. the source of gravity" an invariant one (i.e. coordinate independent) or is not ?
The observer is following the integral curves of the timelike Killing field. That is invariant. Such an observer at infinity is called "at rest at infinity". Whether you want to take the name literally or not is up to you.
cianfa72 said:
MTW defines the four-momentum as a covector (1-form). Are the two formulation actually equivalent?
In any vector space equipped with a metric there's a unique invertible mapping between vectors and covectors via the metric. You must know that, surely.
 
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Ibix said:
The observer is following the integral curves of the timelike Killing field. That is invariant. Such an observer at infinity is called "at rest at infinity". Whether you want to take the name literally or not is up to you.
Ah ok, got it.

Ibix said:
In any vector space equipped with a metric there's a unique invertible mapping between vectors and covectors via the metric. You must know that, surely.
Ok, we're assuming spacetime with a given (Lorentz) metric (that can be used to lower or raise tensor indices).
 
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Since Schwarzschild spacetime is spherically symmetric there are also 3 spacelike KVFs representing the symmetries of 2-sphere.

What about the constants of motion given by the (constant) scalar products of geodesics's 4-velocity and those 3 spacelike KVFs along them ?
 
cianfa72 said:
For Schwarzschild spacetime what does mean that Energy at infinity is conserved as constant of motion associated to the timelike KVF ?
It means exactly what you said in your OP. I don't understand the question.
 
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cianfa72 said:
What about the constants of motion given by the (constant) scalar products of geodesics's 4-velocity and those 3 spacelike KVFs along them ?
Angular momentum.
 
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cianfa72 said:
Since Schwarzschild spacetime is spherically symmetric there are also 3 spacelike KVFs representing the symmetries of 2-sphere.

What about the constants of motion given by the (constant) scalar products of geodesics's 4-velocity and those 3 spacelike KVFs along them ?
They represent angular momentum.
 
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cianfa72 said:
Ok, we're assuming spacetime with a given (Lorentz) metric (that can be used to lower or raise tensor indices).
In relativity, always.
 
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