Convergent sequence property and proving divergence

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of convergent and divergent sequences, specifically examining the limits of sums of sequences and the criteria for divergence. Participants explore theoretical aspects, provide examples, and question the logic behind certain proofs related to sequence convergence.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the validity of the limit property for sums of sequences, noting that if one sequence diverges, the property may not hold.
  • There is a proposal to clarify the theorem regarding limits, suggesting it should specify that both limits must exist for the property to apply.
  • Participants discuss the proof of divergence for the sequence [(-1)n], questioning the logic that the inability to have both odd and even terms in a neighborhood implies divergence.
  • A later reply attempts to rephrase the criteria for divergence, suggesting that showing an open neighborhood of any x does not contain infinitely many terms of the sequence is sufficient for proving divergence.
  • Another participant confirms this understanding, elaborating on the formal definition of convergence and divergence in terms of neighborhoods and epsilon-delta arguments.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the application of limit properties and the logic behind the proof of divergence. There is no consensus on the interpretation of the proof regarding the sequence [(-1)n], and the discussion remains unresolved on certain aspects of the limit properties.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations include the dependence on definitions of convergence and divergence, as well as the assumptions made in the proofs discussed. The discussion highlights the need for clarity in theorems regarding limits and the conditions under which they apply.

Sun God
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I feel like I'm missing something obvious, but anyway, in the text it states:

lim as n→∞ of an+bn = ( lim as n→∞ of an ) + ( lim as n→∞ of bn )

But say an is 1/n and bn is n. Then the limit of the sum is n/n = 1, but the lim as n→∞ of bn doesn't exist and this property doesn't work...


Second thing, I was reading an example of how to prove a sequence is divergent, specifically the sequence [(-1)n], and the text proves it by contradiction. "Take any positive number \epsilon<1. Then the interval (a - \epsilon, a + \epsilon) has length less than 2. Therefore, it is not possible to have both odd and even terms of sequence in this interval, therefore the sequence [(-1)n] cannot converge to a."

Why does not being able to possesses both odd and even terms in that interval mean that the sequence doesn't converge? It seems like a random leap of logic to me...
 
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Sun God said:
I feel like I'm missing something obvious, but anyway, in the text it states:

lim as n→∞ of an+bn = ( lim as n→∞ of an ) + ( lim as n→∞ of bn )

But say an is 1/n and bn is n. Then the limit of the sum is n/n = 1, but the lim as n→∞ of bn doesn't exist and this property doesn't work...

The theorem should properly be written as "If \lim_{n \to \infty}a_n and [/itex]\lim_{n \to \infty}b_n[/itex] exist, then \lim_{n \to \infty} (a_n + b_n) = (\lim_{n \to \infty} a_n) + (\lim_{n \to \infty} b_n).

Now notice n &lt; n + n^{-1}. So n + n^{-1} diverges as n \to \infty.

Second thing, I was reading an example of how to prove a sequence is divergent, specifically the sequence [(-1)n], and the text proves it by contradiction. "Take any positive number \epsilon<1. Then the interval (a - \epsilon, a + \epsilon) has length less than 2. Therefore, it is not possible to have both odd and even terms of sequence in this interval, therefore the sequence [(-1)n] cannot converge to a."

Why does not being able to possesses both odd and even terms in that interval mean that the sequence doesn't converge? It seems like a random leap of logic to me...

A sequence \{x_n\}_{n \in \mathbb{N}} converges to x if and only if for every open neighborhood U of x, there exists an N \in \mathbb{N} such that x_n \in U whenever N \leq n. The example shows that regardless of which x \in \mathbb{R} you choose, there is an open neighborhood of x which does not contain infinitely many of the x_n. This means that \{x_n\}_{n \in \mathbb{N}} does not converge.
 
Thanks for the prompt response!

Okay, so to try to simplify it/put it in more understandable phrasing (for my own sake): for a sequence to be proven divergent, I just have to show that for any x there is an open neighborhood of x such that the sequence does not have infinitely many terms contained in that neighborhood?
 
Sun God said:
Okay, so to try to simplify it/put it in more understandable phrasing (for my own sake): for a sequence to be proven divergent, I just have to show that for any x there is an open neighborhood of x such that the sequence does not have infinitely many terms contained in that neighborhood?

That is correct. More explicitly a sequence \{x_n\}_{n \in \mathbb{N}} converges to x if and only if for all 0 &lt; \varepsilon there exists N \in \mathbb{N} such that N \leq n implies |x_n - x| &lt; \varepsilon. This means that the sequence \{x_n\}_{n \in \mathbb{N}} does not converge to x if and only if there exists 0 &lt; \varepsilon such that for all N \in \mathbb{N} there is some N \leq n such that \varepsilon &lt; |x_n - x|. This is all just the standard \varepsilon,\delta stuff that you learn in basic calculus classes.

Now let's look at the non-convergent case again. What it is saying is that we can find an 0 &lt; \varepsilon such that no matter how big we choose N, we can always find an N \leq n with x_n \notin (x-\varepsilon,x+\varepsilon). From here it is pretty easy to work out this the open neighborhood (x-\varepsilon,x+\varepsilon) does not contain infinitely many of the x_n.
 

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