Cosby puts his money where his mouth is

[russ_watters]

They've come close in some of them. None of the western European countries with comparable per capita GDP's have nearly the poverty rate the US does. Even Germany, after absorbing East Germany only has 2/3 of the US poverty rate. The Netherlands has less than a quarter of the US poverty rate.

I'd be interested in seeing those numbers and the critereon they use for determining what "poverty" is in each country.

 

[Njorl]

Sorry. My mistake. The poverty numbers were from the late 80's. It is strange. I can't seem to find any more recent for most countries. Even the CIA factbook has "NA" for most countries in western Europe. US is down to 12% as of 2001, and UK has gone up to 17%, essentially switching places in the last 10-15 years.

Belgium is at 4%, France at 6.5% but the Scandanavian countries, Germany, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands are all NA.

For a minute, I thought NA might mean to low to measure, but Italy is also NA, so no way.

Njorl
AS to whether poverty statistics are relevant to this, I'd say they are. I wouldn't argue that they are the final word on the issue though.

 

[Njorl]

Consider a young man with limited prospects. He sees an opportunity to put himself into a better circumstance. It does not come free though. He needs to make sacrifices before he can benefit. There will also be new responsibilities with this opportunity, and others will need to rely on him. He decides to take this opportunity. Does it show character?




























The opportunity is to join a gang.

Njorl

 

[member 5645]

He sees an opportunity to put himself into a better circumstance.

Well, there's the fallacy in your story.

 

[Njorl]

Well, there's the fallacy in your story.

The problem isn't my fallacy, it is the young man's. I don't think that it is smart for the kid to join a gang, but I have access to better information. The problem is, the kid thinks that it is smart to join the gang.

The problem is not the kid's character, it is knowledge of his own situation. If he knew and believed that getting an education and a good job were possible, he'd probably do it.

What Cos is doing is OK. He is essentially letting some kids know that there is not a financial barrier to their higher education. That will be enough for many kids. Others, though, won't make a connection tbetween an education and a good job. It may seem utterly bizarre to us - but those who post to something called "Physics Forums" are essentially pre-selected to connect education to success. Kids who grow up in North Philly, Harlaam, East St. Louis, Watts, or the worst parts of Appalachia are not necessarily going to make that connection.

I think far better than what Cos has done is what Magic Johnson does. He puts businesses in impoverished neighborhoods. They don't provide great jobs, but they are better than welfare, and better than being a "clocker". They also provide two invaluable things - job experience and visibility. Think of the impact on a kid when he never sees success in his neighborhood. If you walk past nothing but boarded up storefronts on the way to school, the lesson you will learn is that success is impossible. But if you walk past any thriving business, you believe in success. Yeah, the clerks make squat, but somebody is making decent money legitimately. Children don't learn from logical, rational discussions, they learn from examples.

Lately, when someone "makes it", their response is to get the hell out of the old neighborhood. I can't blame them, but what it does is deprive the old neighborhood of a good example.

Hmm, I rambled a bit here. Not exactly sure of what I'm arguing for. I suppose I'm arguing against the idea that character is the critical factor here. I think I'm also aguing against the idea that education and opportunity are enough to solve the problem of poverty. I think hope is an absolutely essential ingredient to ending systemic poverty.

Njorl

 

[russ_watters]

The problem is, the kid thinks that it is smart to join the gang.

I'm not buying that one either.

 

[member 5645]

1> The problem is, the kid thinks that it is smart to join the gang.
The problem is not the kid's character, it is knowledge of his own situation. If he knew and believed that getting an education and a good job were possible, he'd probably do it.

2>What Cos is doing is OK. He is essentially letting some kids know that there is not a financial barrier to their higher education. That will be enough for many kids. Others, though, won't make a connection tbetween an education and a good job. It may seem utterly bizarre to us - but those who post to something called "Physics Forums" are essentially pre-selected to connect education to success. Kids who grow up in North Philly, Harlaam, East St. Louis, Watts, or the worst parts of Appalachia are not necessarily going to make that connection.

3>I think far better than what Cos has done is what Magic Johnson does. He puts businesses in impoverished neighborhoods. They don't provide great jobs, but they are better than welfare, and better than being a "clocker".

4>They also provide two invaluable things - job experience and visibility. Think of the impact on a kid when he never sees success in his neighborhood. If you walk past nothing but boarded up storefronts on the way to school, the lesson you will learn is that success is impossible. But if you walk past any thriving business, you believe in success. Yeah, the clerks make squat, but somebody is making decent money legitimately. Children don't learn from logical, rational discussions, they learn from examples.

5>Hmm, I rambled a bit here. Not exactly sure of what I'm arguing for. I suppose I'm arguing against the idea that character is the critical factor here.

6> I think I'm also aguing against the idea that education and opportunity are enough to solve the problem of poverty. I think hope is an absolutely essential ingredient to ending systemic poverty.

Njorl

Pardon my shorter response to your lengthy post. I can't afford to spend an awful lot of time with this at the moment. Nor can I find a lot I don't agree with.


1>Well, let's assume that is the case. The kid has a skewed view and sees a gang as a way out of his present situation, okay.
2>So we are saying is that there needs to be more of a connection between education and a good lifestyle taught. I agree.
3>Again, believe it or not, I FULLY agree. In fact, I couldn't agree more. I am all for giving people a tool and not the product. I would even be for my tax dollars going to, or giving tax breaks to, businesses along some guidelines of operating in such areas. The money would easily be made back in a greater possible GDP, as well as less tax money spent going after people like the gangs you mentioned.
4>agree again.
5>Character is part of it. Al beit, I conced not the only factor.
6>hope would be the result of character, education, and opportunity.

You know man, for a self confessed liberal, I am shocked that you didn't jump on the typical bandwagon of giving out cash aid, or paying for all school, etc. I really don't find a problem with finding ways to create an environment in impoverished areas that are condusive to a business being able to run successfully.

 

[balkan]

Belgium is at 4%, France at 6.5% but the Scandanavian countries, Germany, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands are all NA.

For a minute, I thought NA might mean to low to measure, but Italy is also NA, so no way.

Njorl
AS to whether poverty statistics are relevant to this, I'd say they are. I wouldn't argue that they are the final word on the issue though.

for scandinavia, and perhaps germany aswell, "N/A" fits pretty well... it is way below the 4% of belgium in scandinavia anyway... a few thousand homeless people exists in scandinavia, but the grand majority of them are homeless by either choise or because of mental illness...

 

[JohnDubYa]

yes, we agree on the first, but if you really want them to succeed, wouldn't it be fair to help them acieve the sort of environment in which they would be most likely to succeed? and wouldn't it be good for the country in the long run?

Sounds good, but the Devil is in the details. How can you be fair to them without being unfair to others at the same time?

you can't expect everyone to have the same mentality as yours. especially not when they grow up in negative environments... they have seen people try and fail, over and over again... they have seen people get to wealth much quicker by stealing, pushing or through the rare sports career than they have seen people succeed by hard work... yes, the mentality is their own, but that mentality is highly influenced by environment since childbirth...

They also know that stealing is wrong. So if they begin stealing, then they are responsible for their own plight and I cease feeling sorry for them (especially since I consider theft about the lowest thing a person can do).

and I'm not talking about throwing money at them either... I'm talking about providing them with an environment where they are more likely to succeed... better public schools and cheap, quality food for them while they're there, would be tremendous improvements...

Cheaper, quality food? We already have food stamps available where they can choose food in a supermarket and not have to pay for it. That isn't enough?

And how do you propose making the schools in the inner city better without resorting to "throwing money at them"?

 

[JohnDubYa]

Consider a young man with limited prospects. He sees an opportunity to put himself into a better circumstance. It does not come free though. He needs to make sacrifices before he can benefit. There will also be new responsibilities with this opportunity, and others will need to rely on him. He decides to take this opportunity. Does it show character?

Not if this new opportunity is illegal and harms society (and gets him killed before he turns 21).

 

[Shadow]

Bill cosby is my god...

he's a great guy

 

[balkan]

1) Cheaper, quality food? We already have food stamps available where they can choose food in a supermarket and not have to pay for it. That isn't enough?

2) And how do you propose making the schools in the inner city better without resorting to "throwing money at them"?

1) in schools! so that the underpriviliged families will know, that sending their kid in school (any school) will ensure that he's getting nurtured... nurishment is extremely important when learning, and you ****ing know it... don't play stupid...

2) that would be spending money on the educational system in order to secure the future... the kids are our future... i thought you republicans were all about the "teach a man to fish" principle? guess it's all just words... typical
throwing money at the families themselves wouldn't do much good other than keeping them alive...

 

[JohnDubYa]

1) in schools! so that the underpriviliged families will know, that sending their kid in school (any school) will ensure that he's getting nurtured...

They are already fed, and meals have to satisfy state guidelines for nutrition. This is in California, and I imagine every state has their own guidelines.

http://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/nu/sn/stm.asp

What exactly is wrong with the nutrition kids receive in school?

So nurishment is extremely important when learning, and you ****ing know it... don't play stupid...

Balkan, cut the personal attacks.

2) that would be spending money on the educational system in order to secure the future... the kids are our future... i thought you republicans were all about the "teach a man to fish" principle? guess it's all just words...

We just passed a bond in our neighborhood to buy new laptops, and now there is talk of raising the sales tax for even more money. No amount of money appears to be enough as far as the schools are concerned.

 

[balkan]

Balkan, cut the personal attacks.

We just passed a bond in our neighborhood to buy new laptops, and now there is talk of raising the sales tax for even more money. No amount of money appears to be enough as far as the schools are concerned.

sorry, but i feel that your never ending attempts to put words in my mouth, so that you can put me in your labeled box, is at least as offensive. if you cut it out, i will instantly stop the personal attacks...

you should check out the state of the schools in different states across the country... many states have fine school systems while others have quite the opposite. it is no big secret either, that the quality of the school highly depends on the community...

http://www.modernschools.org/need/

 

[JohnDubYa]

You never answered my question: What exactly is wrong with the nutrition kids receive in school?

you should check out the state of the schools in different states across the country... many states have fine school systems while others have quite the opposite. it is no big secret either, that the quality of the school highly depends on the community...

Right, and I support my schools by paying taxes. That is why my community passed the bond issue, to provide more money to our schools.

 

[member 5645]

2) that would be spending money on the educational system in order to secure the future... the kids are our future... i thought you republicans were all about the "teach a man to fish" principle? guess it's all just words... typical
throwing money at the families themselves wouldn't do much good other than keeping them alive...

Again, you believe throwing money at a problem will fix it. Tax Tax Tax, spend, spend, spend.

In the last 5 years the per student cost in my district has almost doubled, while the test scores across the board are some of the lowest in the state (lower than when I was in school here). Just More money is not the answer.

 

[balkan]

Again, you believe throwing money at a problem will fix it. Tax Tax Tax, spend, spend, spend.

In the last 5 years the per student cost in my district has almost doubled, while the test scores across the board are some of the lowest in the state (lower than when I was in school here). Just More money is not the answer.

right... but less money is... i know... fewer taxes, and suddently people will spring from all over the country to donate money... or are the books and buildings automatically going to update and repair themself?

and the fact that it is working in many european countrys doesn't make a difference either...
you should have read some of the info in the link... to get the schools of america (in average) up to central european standard is going to cost much more than what is spent atm... the money also has to be spent rigth of course...

i for one really can't see that tax dollars used on the public school system is a waste of money... i consider it an investment... rigth now, though i'd consider it a pretty lousy investment...

so let's spend some more money on a war for freedom and democrasy instead... i can think of several countrys with an evil dictator that should be removed...

 

[member 5645]

right... but less money is... i know... fewer taxes, and suddently people will spring from all over the country to donate money... or are the books and buildings automatically going to update and repair themself?

and the fact that it is working in many european countrys doesn't make a difference either...
you should have read some of the info in the link... to get the schools of america (in average) up to central european standard is going to cost much more than what is spent atm... the money also has to be spent rigth of course...

i for one really can't see that tax dollars used on the public school system is a waste of money... i consider it an investment... rigth now, though i'd consider it a pretty lousy investment...

so let's spend some more money on a war for freedom and democrasy instead... i can think of several countrys with an evil dictator that should be removed...

Or, perhaps I propose that:

1>money could be used more efficiently
2>there are factors at play that money won't solve.

 

[balkan]

Or, perhaps I propose that:

1>money could be used more efficiently
2>there are factors at play that money won't solve.

in which case i would agree with you... hence, the bad investment comment...
the problem is, that neither the democrats or the republicans will spend "wisely"... they will spend on whatever their group of devotees tend to favour...
the #2 i think, falls mostly under parental enlightenment and environment... both fields would require money spent to do anything about it... so that falls back to #1...
of course, then there are the issues of the youth being rotten, but I'm afraid that's mandatory, so nothing is ever going to change in that department

 

[russ_watters]

Or, perhaps I propose that:

1>money could be used more efficiently
2>there are factors at play that money won't solve.

IMO, #2 is far and away the larger factor. Njorl's little case study is a great example. A shiny new laptop in that kid's science class is not going to keep him from joining a gang.

the #2 i think, falls mostly under parental enlightenment and environment... both fields would require money spent to do anything about it... so that falls back to #1...

I agree with the first part, but for the second - How exactly would you improve parenting by spending money?

 

[balkan]

I agree with the first part, but for the second - How exactly would you improve parenting by spending money?

through information and education... night and daytime classes e.g. how do you propose teaching them the importance of good parenting and good nutrition without spending money?

 

[JohnDubYa]

through information and education... night and daytime classes e.g. how do you propose teaching them the importance of good parenting and good nutrition without spending money?

These parents are often the same ones that slept through their Nutrition class in high school. What is going to motivate them to attend such meetings? Good information on nutrition is easily available for anyone that wants to know.

 

[member 5645]

through information and education... night and daytime classes e.g. how do you propose teaching them the importance of good parenting and good nutrition without spending money?

Do you think a parent that is not taking care of their child is doing so because they just can't figure it out, or because they simply don't care?

 

[JohnDubYa]

"Oh, I didn't know that Twinkies were unhealthy. Thank you so much for that helpful information."

 

[balkan]

Do you think a parent that is not taking care of their child is doing so because they just can't figure it out, or because they simply don't care?

These parents are often the same ones that slept through their Nutrition class in high school. What is going to motivate them to attend such meetings? Good information on nutrition is easily available for anyone that wants to know.

most do care, but simply don't know how... people really do think that burgers with ligth fries are healthy...

if they do think their food is nutritious and they're treating their kids great, why would they want to go seek information on nutrition and parenting? i mean, they've learned from their own parents, and they did fine...
a few people would but most wouldn't...

john, are you interessted in the problem being solved or are you just *****ing about anything that could cost you tax dollars? it sounds like the latter...
people aren't aware and won't solve the problem on their own, so you have to do something, if you wish to resolve the problem... if you don't, then just go rigth ahead and say that instead... yes they can find information on their own, but they're not doing it... sometimes you have to slap people in their face to get their attention...

if you do wish to offer a solution, i sure as hell would like to hear it... you're so good at critisizing, but is that all?

i have an idea of what your solution is, though:
"people just have to teach their kids rigth, and everyone should get a job and buy healthy food"... voila! and without spending a dime... and you solved the unemployment problem as well... it will of course help even more to lower the taxes and cut financing to the public schools...

 

[member 5645]

most do care, but simply don't know how... people really do think that burgers with ligth fries are healthy...

if they do think their food is nutritious and they're treating their kids great, why would they want to go seek information on nutrition and parenting? i mean, they've learned from their own parents, and they did fine...
a few people would but most

Don't take a offense:
Can you back up these statements? It seems common knowledge that fast food is bad for you, but many say they don't care because it's so easy and cheap. Afterall, we DO learn basic nutrition in school (a veiled course that covers how not to make yourself a fatass)
I'd sure hate to spend BILLLIONS on setting up programs if they have no data to show they will work.

 

[balkan]

Don't take a offense:
Can you back up these statements? It seems common knowledge that fast food is bad for you, but many say they don't care because it's so easy and cheap. Afterall, we DO learn basic nutrition in school (a veiled course that covers how not to make yourself a fatass)
I'd sure hate to spend BILLLIONS on setting up programs if they have no data to show they will work.

i sure as hell would hate it too, so if you have any reasonable alternatives, feel free to do something else than critisize

i'm not just talking about fast food though, I'm talking food in general... it doesn't really matter if the kids learn how to eat, cause when they get home, they're going to have to eat what's on the table... the parents must learn aswell, and they don't have a history of being very willing to being taught by their children... (it took my own mom about a decade to figure out that it doesn't matter how much salad you put on the table when the potatoes and meat is roasted in butter and chicken grease...)

all you have to do is turn ricky lake or oprah on, and you'll see salutes to fat people... "fat is beautifull" and i can't remember all their slogans... some celebrities are even doing it, saying it's healthy being fat, because you get plenty of fuel for the brain (although the brain demands sugar (i.e. carbonhydrates) and not fat )

it's prolly too late to learn parents today the value of inciting their children, but it's not too late to teach the children...

 

[JohnDubYa]

i sure as hell would hate it too, so if you have any reasonable alternatives, feel free to do something else than critisize

I have a reasonable alternative: Don't spend the money on a program that will likely fail.

i'm not just talking about fast food though, I'm talking food in general... it doesn't really matter if the kids learn how to eat, cause when they get home, they're going to have to eat what's on the table... the parents must learn aswell, and they don't have a history of being very willing to being taught by their children... (it took my own mom about a decade to figure out that it doesn't matter how much salad you put on the table when the potatoes and meat is roasted in butter and chicken grease...)

I fail to see how being fed meat that is roasted in butter and chicken grease has any adverse affect on a child's ability to do well in school. You could feed these kids lobster and it isn't going to make them better students.

it's prolly too late to learn parents today the value of inciting their children, but it's not too late to teach the children...

Interview those that walk into a KFC sometime and see if they really think that the food they are being served is healthy. I would bet that most would say "No, but I like it anyway."

Better yet, hold up a picture of a salad and a bacon cheeseburger and ask which of the two the customer thinks is healthier. Now ask which one he plans to purchase. I think most McDonalds employees will tell you that they sell a Hell of a lot more hamburgers than salads.

Fat tastes good. And as long as fat tastes good, people will buy it. And I don't care how much "learnin'" you plan on dishing out, unhealthy food will always be popular.

 

[russ_watters]

through information and education... night and daytime classes e.g.

And you expect some parents will actually go to these classes? And after they go, some might even follow some of the advice? I'm not nearly that optomistic.

most do care, but simply don't know how...

I'm not that optomistic either.

 

[JohnDubYa]

And you expect some parents will actually go to these classes?

If they offer free hot dogs and coke they might.