Could an Atmospheric Siphon Create a Self-Sustaining Effect?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the hypothetical concept of an atmospheric siphon, specifically whether a large "straw" connecting sea level to high altitudes could create a self-sustaining flow of air from high pressure to low pressure. Participants explore the mechanics of siphoning, pressure differences, and the feasibility of such a system in the context of atmospheric physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant hypothesizes about a large straw and questions if it could create a siphon effect to move air from sea level to high altitudes, suggesting a self-sustaining mechanism.
  • Several participants clarify that a siphon relies on gravity and cannot function against it, emphasizing that the pressure difference alone is insufficient to create a self-sustaining flow.
  • There is discussion about the limitations of pressure differences, with one participant noting that the pressure difference between sea level and vacuum cannot push water higher than 10 meters, raising questions about air behavior in a similar setup.
  • Some participants argue that the concept misunderstands the nature of siphoning, which works with gravity rather than against it, and that energy input is necessary for any sustained flow.
  • One participant suggests that trees use energy from the sun to create a flow of water, implying that a similar energy input would be required for air to flow in the proposed siphon.
  • Another participant critiques the original hypothesis, questioning the assumption that pressure would equalize throughout the straw and explaining that pressure decreases with height.
  • There is a repeated emphasis on the need for external energy to maintain any flow, with multiple participants asserting that a self-sustaining mechanism is not feasible.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on the feasibility of a self-sustaining atmospheric siphon. While there is consensus that siphoning relies on gravity and that external energy is necessary, the initial hypothesis and its implications remain contested.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the original hypothesis, including misunderstandings about pressure equalization and the mechanics of siphoning. The discussion remains focused on theoretical considerations without reaching a consensus on the viability of the proposed concept.

enzi
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While I'm at it I might as well ask your help on another question that has been bugging me for a while.

Let's hypothesize a huge "straw" a hundred metres or more in diameter. One end of this straw is at sea level. The other end is at 10,000 metres in altitude. It's obvious that the air pressure inside the straw would equalize, but if (again hypothetically) it could be "started" somehow, would there be a siphon effect which would push the sea level atmosphere up the straw to the stratosphere and would this effect be self sustaining?

Thanks again in advance for any assistance.
 
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No, that isn't how a siphon works. A siphon works because the fluid in the siphon is pulled down by gravity. This creates a suction effect that sucks more fluid into the siphon and the result is the draining of a reservoir that is higher in elevation than the other end of your siphon where the fluid is coming out. A siphon cannot work against gravity.
 
Ok, perhaps due to the fact that I slept through most of my high school science classes I'm not explaining myself properly. The "straw" is connecting two areas, one with about 100 kPa and the other one with almost zero. Would there be a way to get that atmosphere flowing from the high pressure end to the low pressure end (like a deflating balloon) and have it be self-sustaining?
 
enzi said:
The "straw" is connecting two areas, one with about 100 kPa and the other one with almost zero. Would there be a way to get that atmosphere flowing from the high pressure end to the low pressure end (like a deflating balloon) and have it be self-sustaining?
In zero-g it would flow from higher to lower pressure. But here the pressure difference is countered by the weight of the water. In fact, the pressure difference between sea-level and vacuum cannot push the water higher than 10m. But you can pull water higher than that, with negative pressure. Trees do this by evaporating a lot of water at their leafs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BickMFHAZR0
 
A.T. said:
In zero-g it would flow from higher to lower pressure. But here the pressure difference is countered by the weight of the water. In fact, the pressure difference between sea-level and vacuum cannot push the water higher than 10m. But you can pull water higher than that, with negative pressure. Trees do this by evaporating a lot of water at their leafs.

Would the lower density of the air work in a different way than the water you're discussing? The "straw" would only be connecting sea level air with stratospheric "lack of" air.
 
enzi said:
Would the lower density of the air work in a different way than the water you're discussing? The "straw" would only be connecting sea level air with stratospheric "lack of" air.

Gravity is still pulling all the air in the straw down. This is why you have a difference in pressure in the first place. A siphon works by using gravitational energy. It's like going up the side of a mountain and pushing a boulder off. You have to use some energy to get it going initially, but once it starts it rolls the rest of the way down. But you can't make it go up the mountain on its own.
 
Drakkith said:
Gravity is still pulling all the air in the straw down. This is why you have a difference in pressure in the first place. A siphon works by using gravitational energy. It's like going up the side of a mountain and pushing a boulder off. You have to use some energy to get it going initially, but once it starts it rolls the rest of the way down. But you can't make it go up the mountain on its own.

Yes, definitely. So even given a hypothetical "starter" that would get the air flowing quickly from the bottom to the top, the Earth's gravity would still be pulling down on the air itself hard enough that it would not be self-sustaining, right?
 
enzi said:
The "straw" would only be connecting sea level air with stratospheric "lack of" air.
As I said: The pressure difference between sea-level and vacuum cannot push the water higher than 10m. But even if you make it less than 10m, the water will not pull itself up to a higher level, because the pressure difference is countered by the weight of the water.

The trees use Sun's energy to evaporate the water, which pulls more water. Without that energy input it wouldn't work continuously.
 
enzi said:
Yes, definitely. So even given a hypothetical "starter" that would get the air flowing quickly from the bottom to the top, the Earth's gravity would still be pulling down on the air itself hard enough that it would not be self-sustaining, right?

Kind of. It's not that gravity pulls down too hard to make this work, it's that you have the entire concept backwards. You are trying to work AGAINST gravity when siphoning works WITH gravity. A siphon is self sustaining BECAUSE of gravity. Does that make sense?
 
  • #10
enzi said:
The "straw" is connecting two areas, one with about 100 kPa and the other one with almost zero. Would there be a way to get that atmosphere flowing from the high pressure end to the low pressure end (like a deflating balloon) and have it be self-sustaining?

No. There is a flaw in your original post, emphasis mine:

enzi said:
Let's hypothesize a huge "straw" a hundred metres or more in diameter. One end of this straw is at sea level. The other end is at 10,000 metres in altitude. It's obvious that the air pressure inside the straw would equalize ...
Equalize to what? You appear to be assuming that the pressure would be constant throughout the straw. That's not correct. The air in the straw would "equalize" (better: come to an equilibrium state) such that the at any point, the pressure balances the weight of all of the material above. Going up the straw starting from ground level, there is less and less overlaying material, and hence less and less weight that to be supported with increased elevation. Pressure decreases with height inside the straw.
 
  • #11
OK, without addressing each reply individually let me be clear:

a) I am only talking about air not water
b) By equalization I mean to the air pressure at that point outside the straw
c) Is there any way to get this flow going in some way that I'm not imagining and most importantly be self-sustaining?

Thanks to all replies as I appreciate your time and effort!
 
  • #12
enzi said:
a) I am only talking about air not water

Doesn't matter. Air is a fluid too. (but not a liquid) It obeys the same rules that water does in this case.

b) By equalization I mean to the air pressure at that point outside the straw

The air inside and outside the straw will be equal in pressure at all heights.

c) Is there any way to get this flow going in some way that I'm not imagining and most importantly be self-sustaining?

No, not at all. It would require external energy to be input into the straw, such as heating from the Sun. Self-Sustaining is not possible.
 
  • #13
enzi said:
Is there any way to get this flow going in some way that I'm not imagining and most importantly be self-sustaining?
What flow?

Let's make this a bit more concrete.

A pipe (a rather sturdy one at that) rather than a straw is needed. In fact, a concrete pipe won't do. Our pipe is going to need to be made of unobtanium to avoid the problem of progressive collapse.

Suppose we lay the pipe horizontally at sea level so that it fills with air, seal one end, and then hoist the pipe into a vertical position so that the sealed end is at the top. The open end at the bottom is exposed to the sea level atmosphere. Now simply break the seal at the top of the pipe and we should have a siphon, right? Wrong. Air will flow out of the bottom of the pipe as the pipe is being hoisted to the vertical. There will be no air at the top of the pipe to flow out of the top by the time the pipe is vertical and we break the seal.

Suppose instead we seal both ends and simultaneously break the seals on both ends once the pipe reaches a vertical orientation. This should work, right? Wrong again. Now air is going to flow out of both the bottom and the top of the pipe, with a whole lot more flowing out of the bottom.

You want air going into the pipe at the bottom and flowing out of the top, and that isn't going to happen.
 
  • #14
Ok, fair enough! The answer is clear: No can do! Thanks to all for your valuable input!
 
  • #15
enzi said:
Ok, fair enough! The answer is clear: No can do! Thanks to all for your valuable input!

But do you understand WHY?
 
  • #16
Drakkith said:
But do you understand WHY?

Yup, no matter how much force you use to kickstart the flow gravity is going to overcome it and slow it down to a halt.

Do I get a passing grade? :)
 
  • #17
enzi said:
Yup, no matter how much force you use to kickstart the flow gravity is going to overcome it and slow it down to a halt.

Do I get a passing grade? :)

I'll give you a B-. :-p
 
  • #18
Drakkith said:
I'll give you a B-. :-p

That's way better than I got in any high school science class so I humbly thank you!
 

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