Could Mobile Phones Really Cause Fires at Petrol Pumps?

[xxChrisxx]

The flat disc towards the top left is the part that fits to the outside of the fuel tank. Everything below that, the pump, the fuel level sensor, the sock filter, and the wires sit inside the tank, submerged by gasoline.

You'll never manage to ignite liquid fuel when the ignition source is submerged like that, even if you did majorly bugger up the wiring. It's certainly more safe than having the majority of the wiring above the liquid fuel where all the vapour is.

Safe as houses.

 

[JaredJames]

As petrol forecourts are a less extreme version of oil rig decks, it's the same basic problem that's being addressed. Where safety like this is concerned, directives don't care how remote the probability is.

Although a pretty large source of heat, a car that is working properly shouldn't be producting any external sparks. Heat alone from a car won't be enough to cause an explosion. On saying that, if a petrol stations safety features are working properly you could walk around with a naked flame (lighter) and nothing would happen as long as you didnt put it near the nozzles.

Referring back to the report conclusion, my point was that a car is more likely to cause ignition than a mobile phone. A mobile phone 'working properly' shouldn't cause ignition either, so I'd call that a moot argument.

I have a problem that they ban mobile phones from a forecourt when there are far greater risks than them. Slightly exagerated for emphasis: You're banning a minor threat but leaving a major one. It doesn't make sense.

Obviously you can't ban cars or you'd have something of a conflict of interest, but is banning phones really justified in this particular setting?

 

[xxChrisxx]

Referring back to the report conclusion, my point was that a car is more likely to cause ignition than a mobile phone. A mobile phone 'working properly' shouldn't cause ignition either, so I'd call that a moot argument.

It's not an argument, it's just how it is.

If it's all working properly it should be fine whatever you do. But the job of the health and safety man is to put forth ridiclous scenarios for engineers to design against. Like I said, health and safety would just love to ban cars from forecourts, they can't, so banning everything else is the next best thing.

It's the way of the world.

 

[JaredJames]

Yes Chris, but it doesn't make it a logical ban with a valid argument for it.

To me it's just a case of H&S gone mad.

 

[turbo]

Yes Chris, but it doesn't make it a logical ban with a valid argument for it.

To me it's just a case of H&S gone mad.

If you check Mythbusters, Snopes, and other sites, they have thoroughly debunked the cell-phone/gasoline explosion myth. Signs at gas stations and fuel depots are not evidence of the truth of the myth. They are evidence of the power of legal teams that want to dot every "i" to forestall any possibility of legal liability. No legal team would want to face a jury defending a charge brought by a badly-burned victim. Signs are cheaper.

 

[JaredJames]

Again, from the conclusion in Evo's report above, it shows a remote possibility it could happen, but also outlines that it has never happened and that there are far greater risks of ignition than cell phones.

I do agree with you turbo. I think it's all about dodging liability and giving people such as health and safety far too much power.

 

[xxChrisxx]

Signs are cheaper.

This. Times about a billion. In the end it's all about money and liability.

Put it this way. You don't put a sign up saying don't smoke, someone smokes and blows themselves up. In the modern day, especially in the US you would be sues for every penny you have ever seen. Although common sense says don't put hot things near fuel vapour, some idiot will do it.

Although it's a far smaller risk from a mobile, it is distinctly non zero. Therefore it's cheaper to put up a sign and then your liability if reduced just incase. It doesn't matter if it's never happened, as everything dangerous 'has never happened' until it does.

 

[turbo]

Although it's a far smaller risk from a mobile, it is non zero. Therefore it's cheaper to put up a sign and then your liability if reduced just incase.

I'll try to find the link, again, but one of the European manufacturers, IIR (Nokia?) said that if there was any risk from cell phones it would have to be from a dislodged battery causing a spark - not from actually using the phone.

 

[JaredJames]

I'll try to find the link, again, but one of the European manufacturers, IIR (Nokia?) said that if there was any risk from cell phones it would have to be from a dislodged battery causing a spark - not from actually using the phone.

It's in Evos report above. The one I keep referring to.

FFS people. Read.

I've given the whole conclusion which outlines the risk. If you read through the rest of the report it tells you how perfect conditions would have to be for ignition to occur.

 

[xxChrisxx]

I'll try to find the link, again, but one of the European manufacturers, IIR (Nokia?) said that if there was any risk from cell phones it would have to be from a dislodged battery causing a spark - not from actually using the phone.

Yeah I know if it, mostly from the fact you aren't really allowed mobiles on oil rigs. (you can't get signal anyway)

 

[chaoseverlasting]

I had a video of a refuelling truck catching fire because one of the attendants used his mobile phone. I can't seem to find the link though.

 

[BobG]

You'll never manage to ignite liquid fuel when the ignition source is submerged like that, even if you did majorly bugger up the wiring. It's certainly more safe than having the majority of the wiring above the liquid fuel where all the vapour is.

Safe as houses.

This is true, but anyone not susceptible to irrational thoughts at all just isn't human. Plus, a fuel pump is a lot easier to replace when the fuel tank is nearly empty (getting drenched in gasoline when you open the seal wouldn't be much fun). In fact, running out of gas is a situation where the fuel level isn't high enough to reach the intake, let alone completely submerge the pump.

Too bad they didn't have cell phones back in the days of the Ford Pinto.

 

[turbo]

The quote I remembered came from a Motorola spokesperson, not Nokia.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/cellgas.htm

Cell phone makers including Motorola and Nokia have included warnings about not using cell phones around gas vapors. In August of 1999, David Rudd, a spokesman for Motorola, told the San Francisco Chronicle that his company's warning was because of the remote possibility that a dislodged battery cause cause a spark, not because of the transmission of radio signals.

 

[xxChrisxx]

This is true, but anyone not susceptible to irrational thoughts at all just isn't human.

It's changing the wheels for me, I know I've torqued up all the nuts properly but I still have that feeling the wheels about to fly off.

 

[Evo]

The quote I remembered came from a Motorola spokesperson, not Nokia.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/cellgas.htm

Of course the problem is with the physical aspects of the phone, not radio waves. Did someone in this thread say it wasn't?

Also, people should remember that just because the gas station is an unlikely place for events to be correct for a cell phone to ignite fumes, cell phones do ignite combustible gases and are forbidden in areas where volatile dust and gases collect (unless they are IS rated for the danger level they will be operated in).

 

[turbo]

Of course the problem is with the physical aspects of the phone, not radio waves. Did someone in this thread say it wasn't?

Not that I recall, but the myths that circulated through emails and the media were very non-technical, leading people to believe that using a cell phone at a gas station could cause a fire. By the same token, dropping any battery-powered device could start a fire if the battery were dislodged

Actually, you're more likely to be able to start a fire by slipping in and out of the driver's seat wearing a sweater or a fleece jacket. Static electricity on dry days can produce some pretty impressive sparks.