Creating Reaction Mass with Electron-Positron Pair Production for Rocket Thrust

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the feasibility of creating a rocket that generates its own reaction mass through electron-positron pair production, with the intention of using a magnetic nozzle to derive thrust from the accelerated charged particles. The conversation explores theoretical and engineering challenges related to energy sources, photon production, and particle acceleration.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that a sufficiently large energy source, potentially nuclear, could enable the creation of a rocket that produces its own reaction mass through electron-positron pair production.
  • Another participant outlines the conditions necessary for pair production, emphasizing the need for high-energy photons and the involvement of atomic nuclei to satisfy conservation laws, while also noting the challenges posed by heat generated in nuclear reactions.
  • A different participant proposes the idea of recovering energy from the annihilation of the electron-positron pairs by designing a chamber that maximizes the interaction of gamma rays with its walls.
  • One participant mentions speculative propulsion systems that utilize high-power particle accelerators, acknowledging the engineering challenges of miniaturizing such devices for spacecraft use while highlighting the potential for high specific impulse.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the feasibility and challenges of the proposed concept, with no clear consensus reached. Multiple competing ideas and concerns remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations related to energy efficiency, the need for specific conditions for pair production, and the engineering challenges of integrating high-energy systems into spacecraft.

metastable
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Given a large enough energy source (nuclear?)... can I build a rocket that creates its own reaction mass via electron-positron pair production, and then derive thrust by accelerating the charged particles out the back with a magnetic nozzle?
 
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For pair production you need at least the following minimum conditions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_production said:
The photon must have higher energy than the sum of the rest mass energies of an electron and positron (2 × 0.511 MeV = 1.022 MeV) for the production to occur. The photon must be near a nucleus in order to satisfy conservation of momentum, as an electron-positron pair producing in free space cannot both satisfy conservation of energy and momentum. Because of this, when pair production occurs, the atomic nucleus receives some recoil.

Although a nuclear reaction might produce some such photons, it also produces lots of heat that just serves to melt the spacecraft . You not only need an energy source, you need a system which produces only high energy photons near nuclei, and does not do much else. You also need a way to get the electrons and positrons to the nozzle without much interaction with anything else.

So, with my engineer's hat on, I think energy is the least difficult part of the problem.
 
Can I recover some of the energy spent creating the pairs by accelerating them out the back at a slightly converging angle into some sort of bell / chamber, which is designed such that when the annihilations occur, there is a high probability of the gamma rays interacting with the walls of the chamber?
 
There have been speculative propulsion systems using a very high power particle accelerator as the impulse generator.
Obviously there are a few engineering concerns when trying to shrink a more powerful than CERN device into a spacecraft , but conceptually, it does offer tremendous specific impulse from all electric propulsion.,
 
metastable said:
Given a large enough energy source (nuclear?)...
That energy source will be about converting mass to energy. You want to convert that energy back to mass. Try guessing the efficiency...
 
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The OP question has been patiently and adequately answered.

Thread closed.
 
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