Dark matter, electron-positron

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    Dark matter Matter
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the detection of electrons and positrons by the AMS detector, specifically addressing how these particles can be detected separately without annihilating each other after their creation. The conversation explores the mechanisms of particle detection and the conditions under which electron-positron pairs can travel without immediate annihilation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question how electrons and positrons can be detected separately if they are antiparticles and would typically annihilate upon contact.
  • It is proposed that when electrons and positrons are created, they often travel away from each other, reducing the likelihood of immediate annihilation.
  • One participant mentions that the probability of annihilation is still low even when particles are close together, referencing the concept of "positronium."
  • Another participant explains that high momentum at creation allows the particles to move apart, thus avoiding annihilation.
  • Details about how the AMS detector distinguishes between electrons and positrons using magnetic fields and charge differences are discussed.
  • Concerns are raised about the detection of high-energy particles, noting that they can produce similar signals in detectors but are differentiated by their trajectories in magnetic fields.
  • There is mention of the annihilation probability being small for high-energy positrons, allowing them to travel significant distances without interaction.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the mechanisms of particle separation and detection, with no consensus reached on the specifics of how electrons and positrons avoid annihilation before detection.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about particle behavior and detection mechanisms that may not be universally applicable. The complexities of particle interactions and the specifics of detector technology are acknowledged but not fully resolved.

Crazymechanic
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Hi I have a question about a popular science article from BBC, you can ofcourse read the whole article but the part that left me wondering was his which I quoted right here.


"""Prof Ting said that in its first 18 months of operation, AMS had witnessed 25 billion particle events. Of these, nearly eight billion were fast-moving electrons and their anti-matter counterparts, positrons"""


So how come the detector detect electrons and positrons if positron is the electron's antiparticle , how come the positron hasn't already annihilated with the electron after they were produced , how did they came so long way being separate to enter the detector?
And when they enter or before they enter how come the detector distinguish them as they would probably annihilate each other in the moment of detection?
Ok share your thoughts.
 
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Crazymechanic said:
"""Prof Ting said that in its first 18 months of operation, AMS had witnessed 25 billion particle events. Of these, nearly eight billion were fast-moving electrons and their anti-matter counterparts, positrons"""

So how come the detector detect electrons and positrons if positron is the electron's antiparticle,
because it was built to do so.
how come the positron hasn't already annihilated with the electron after they were produced,
When the two particles are created they are traveling away from each other, so they cannot annihilate.
how did they came so long way being separate to enter the detector?
They have a high speed.
And when they enter or before they enter how come the detector distinguish them as they would probably annihilate each other in the moment of detection?
They are detected in different places. The details are in how the detector works - how it detects stuff.

i.e. an electron hitting an metal plate would give it a net negative charge - a positron hitting one would annihilate with one of it's electrons producing a net positive charge. The photon produced could also be detected via a photomultiplier.
 
Ok I was maybe a bit unclear I understand that the detector ir built so to capture these particles and all that , the questions wasn't so much about how does the detector detect those particles rather how those particles survive all the way to make it to the detector without annihilating each other.

Once in the detector the powerful magnet sets the electron apart from the positron with it's field lines but I wonder how did they make it till the detector all this way without annihilating at the very birth of their journey? Maybe a little deeper explanation would be much appreciated.
 
how did they make it till the detector all this way without annihilating at the very birth of their journey?
I said: When the two particles are created they are traveling away from each other, so they cannot annihilate.

A particle anti-particle pair created at rest with respect to each other would never reach the detector and you won't detect them. The probability that the two particles will annihilate, even when quite close together, can still be quite small. Look up "positronium".
 
The only thing I can add to what Simon said is that when they are created, e+ and e- have high momenta. In a typical collision of a particle with a fixed target, the e-e+ produced will have their longitudinal momenta alligned to conserve momentum, yet their transverse momenta will be in the opposite direction. The magnitude of the transverse momenta is such, that particles finally "choose" to move away from each other.
If, say, they were produced at rest, they would finally produce bound state which would annihilate into 2 (or 3) gammas..
Hope this helps.
 
Simon Bridge said:
i.e. an electron hitting an metal plate would give it a net negative charge - a positron hitting one would annihilate with one of it's electrons producing a net positive charge. The photon produced could also be detected via a photomultiplier.
That would be too hard to detect.

High-energetic electrons and positrons look very similar in particle detectors - they fly through the material, and produce electron/hole pairs in silicon detectors, Cherenkov photons in Cherenkov detectors, transition radiation in transition radiation detectors and so on. Almost all particle detectors have a magnetic field, and this allows to distinguish positrons and electrons: They have a different charge, so they are deflected in different directions.

The annihilation "probability" (cross-section) is small for high-energetic positrons. They can travel through the universe easily - as long as they don't hit any significant massive object and slow down there.
 
Well yes of course.
The comment is addressing a different point. Well ... I hoped it would.
Deflection in a magnetic field is the more usual way to check.
Cheers.
 

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