Debunking Religion? Discussion on Boundaries for S&D Forum

[FZ+]

Precisely Neried. It only makes sense to use the idea of tangibility in this way. In the context of claims, there is no way we can observe them directly, rather we observe what is predicted, implicated or influenced by them.

I don't sense you. I detect the photons emitted by you.

 

[phoenixthoth]

Originally posted by Nereid
Is there something special about '11 dimensions'? (or 'gravitational radiation'?) If you're OK with one, why not the other?

If you get infected with an antibiotic-resistance strain of [pick you favourite nasty], aren't you seeing physical consequences of non-physical realities, evolution in this case?

when did i ever say i was OK or not OK with either "11 dimensions" or "gravitational radiation?" I'm just saying "11 dimensions" is intangible. by what FZ+ said earlier, this makes it unscientific and indeterminate. while it may be difficult to objectively determine it, i think that one day the axioms of science and mathematics may determine it, but that's not what FZ+ means by "determine," for he says that a statement like, "aleph0 = aleph1," another intangible claim, is indeterminate though it is clearly "determinable" (in fact, false) by axioms.

i don't see how evolution is a non-physical reality. maybe I'm just not up on evolution theory. is it that there is some non-physical influence on dna? since to me, non-physical means intangible, this would provide more evidence that intangible claims are not unscientic but they are still indeterminate (in an absolute sense). but if axioms are accepted, they become determinate (not in an absolute sense).

cheers,
phoenix

 

[phoenixthoth]

Originally posted by FZ+
Precisely Neried. It only makes sense to use the idea of tangibility in this way. In the context of claims, there is no way we can observe them directly, rather we observe what is predicted, implicated or influenced by them.

I don't sense you. I detect the photons emitted by you.

it is the sense of sight that allows you to detect photons. you're using the sense to establish detection. therefore, you are sensing the photons which gives indirect evidence (although by no means conclusive) that she exists.

btw, i don't think she emits photons unless she's wearing a shirt with glow in the dark stars on it (or what not). she's probably reflecting photons that are emitted from other sources. if we're going to split hairs over "sense" vs "detect", we might as well split hairs over "emit." the goal of splitting hairs in either case escapes me.

cheers,
phoenix

 

[phoenixthoth]

Originally posted by FZ+
But it cannot be objectively true, as you have declared there that this does not represent anything in reality. The meaningful conversation relies on a shared set of definitions (called language) - and speaks nothing of whether the language has a true basis.

i never said it is objectively true. but you can't prove it's objectively false, either, it seems. i think "aleph0 = aleph1" may represent, in some sense, something in reality. aleph0 is the mathematical measurement of the infinity consisting of discrete elements (such as the set of natural numbers) while aleph1 is the mathematical measurement of the infinity consisting of a continuum (such as the set of real numbers). i don't know: is anything in reality continuous? i know time is no longer considered continuous...

Can we just look back over our concept of indeterminancy please? By indeterminancy, this means that I can't prove objectively it to be false - and neither can you prove it to be true. Whether it is true or false is a matter of subjective feeling and opinion.
In fact, you have perfectly captured the failure of most discussions about religion. Faced with this indeterminancy, it is simply impossible to have a meaningful conversation.

so the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, and whatever else in science that involves the indeterminate, can not be conversed about in a meaningful way?

btw, lots of people have meaningful conversations about religion. to say it is impossible to have such a discussion flies in the face of emprical data.

I don't see why you are consistently failing to get this point. Falsification has nothing to do with falsehood! Science has nothing to do with the unfalsifiable. What we get here is that mathematical axioms are non-scientific entities. What we do not get is a contest between science and mathematics, because neither can deal with the other. That is why there are no debunking maths posts, and that is why there should be no misguided debunking religion posts.

that's odd. then the name "falsification" is utterly misleading if it has nothing to do with falsehood. it should be called, "supercalifragilisticalization," if has nothing to do with something being true or false.

is it or is it not true that in science, one does the experiment without forming an expectation about the result? in other words, if you look for a certain outcome, then one may be tempted to see patterns that aren't there or fudge the data a little to get the conclusion that is desired? therefore, it should be standard scientific practice to conduct an experiment without having a desire for the outcome. when you title this thread "debunking religion," you have set a desired outcome. or at least, that's how it comes off. a better title would be "investigating religion."

I think you are failing to understand my point, as this is precisely what I meant. The idea of truth in this context is one of tautology - that in the formulation of the definition, we have forced the 1+1=0 statement to be true. In fact, it is probably more sensible to refer to this not as truth, but as consistency - like saying that 2 = 1+1 is consistent with 1+1=2. But what matters is the formulation of the rules itself. Does 1+1 = 0 represent something in nature. To that, if you follow a formalism based philosophy, you can only say that it is indeterminate, and that in exploring maths we dynamically change it to suit our needs.

The situation is wholly different in a platonic view of course. As far as the platonic view is concerned, this whole argument is moot because maths really is something that has tangible effects in the real world. 1+1=0 in some cases is a scientific discovery. Do you understand?

well, if I'm not understanding the statement, "insisting 1+1!= 2 is rather non-useful," i don't see how.

we should probably throw the word "objectively" in front of true or false if that's what we mean. I'm falling into the "trap" of often referring to "true" statements (in math or otherwise) as true, when, in fact, they're not objectively true (or objectively false). well, group theory is based on statements like 1+1=0; don't you think group theory is important in quantum mechanics, string theory, and other fields? to give a concrete example, that is the kind of arithmetic used on clocks. clocks occur in nature.

much of mathematics is not platonic.

Because it seems you don't.

Let's start off from basics.

False = Is contradicted by reality.
True = Is supported by reality so far.
Indeterminate = Unable to test for support/contradiction by reality. Neither false nor true.
Falsifiable = Can be tested for contradiction by reality.
Consistent = provides a logical framework with other claims.
Tangible = Interacts with what is observable. Can be detected or implicates behaviour that can be measured.

When we talk of true mathematics, we really mean consistent mathematics. A mathematical "proof" consistutes a search for that consistency. In this way, we can make the whole of mathematics one body. We cannot however, unless we adopt the platonic idea of mathematics being tangible in itself.

when can anything be contradicted by reality? this would require that we have a way to be objectively SURE that we have any awareness of reality. neo, in the movie "the matrix," had no awareness of reality whatsoever until he took the red pill (or was it the blue pill?). how can you say what reality is if you can't even prove you're not in a matrix in which the rules are subject to change at the whim of the robots who control it?

so far. so things can be true today and not tomorrow? that is not an acceptable definition of truth. i claim that ALL people with pictures of homer's boss as their icon have your beliefs. then, by your definition, this claim is true for it is true so far. to me, one instance hardly proves it's true. i guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what true means. furthermore, the word "supported." what does this mean? the predictions rarely EXACTLY match the observations, correct? there is some tolerance of DIFFERNECE to "reality" that is ACCEPTABLE. but, there is still a difference. technically, by your definition, this wouldn't make the claim true. very, very, very, very, very plausible, perhaps.

well, by your definition, i would argue that "aleph0 = aleph1" is not indeterminate for nothing in reality thus far, as far as we know, is different from itself. i too think it's not indeterminate. however, the claim that there is a cardinal number x such that aleph0 < x < aleph1 has been shown to be indeterminate in the mathematical sense.

by your definition of tangible, God is tangible for it interacts with the whole universe. i agree with the "detected" part but the "implicates behavior" part i don't. the warppage of space-time changes the behavior of light rays but that doesn't mean the warpage is tangible, to me, at least.

don't patronize me. it's not that i don't understand you. it's that i disagree. I'm not chalking up your disagreeance of me as a lack of understanding...

i don't think mathematics is one network of tautolgies. it may consist of several collections of consitencies... but i guess you could call that whole collection one body if you would also call twin brothers one body.

you seem to have contradicted yourself. you said this:
False = Is contradicted by reality.
Falsifiable = Can be tested for contradiction by reality.
but you also said this:
Falsification has nothing to do with falsehood!

well, i see two words starting with contradict and two instances of reality. it seems that they have SOMETHING to do with each other. i retract my "supercalifragilisticalization" comment for they do have something to do with each other.

String(or M) theory is a theory that is consistent as far as we know with past true theories, tangible in what it claims will happen, and is increasingly falsifiable. String (or M) theory is incomplete.

In terms of science, because of the element of falsifiablility, it is impossible to "prove" a theory in an absolute way.

since we have different view on what "tangible" means, we cannot agree on whether "11 dimensions" are tangible. i simply don't see how you could say that they're tangible until we have a new kind of telescope to "see" into them. but i guess that's where we'll have to agree to disagree.

you say it's "increasingly falsifiable," but isn't it really the case that string theory has a long way to go before it will be accepted by the experimentalists (people like feynman, who i know is dead)? I've heard that we won't have the technology to test some major predictions for a LONG time...

"it is impossible to "prove" a theory in an absolute way." that's mainly what I'm trying to argue. that's essentially what i think you think about religion. but when you say that about religion, you say that, "faced with this indeterminancy (where by that i mean an inability to prove it in an absolute way), it is simply impossible to have a meaningful conversation." if that is the case, it shoudl apply to science as well. i think meaningful conversations are to be had in both fields even though no theory in either field will ever be proven "absolutely."

in his [nash's] autobiographical essay, written after he won the nobel, nash writes that “rational thought imposes a limit on a person’s concept of his relation to the cosmos.” he refers to remissions not as joyful returns to a healthy state but as “interludes, as it were, of enforced rationality.”

it is my deep suspician that removing such limitations is exactly what will lead us to be able to prove a theory absolutely.

cheers,
phoenix

 

[Nereid]

Yep, a can of worms

phoenixthoth: when did i ever say i was OK or not OK with either "11 dimensions" or "gravitational radiation?" I'm just saying "11 dimensions" is intangible. by what FZ+ said earlier, this makes it unscientific and indeterminate.

On Sept 30, in a post earlier in this thread: "there is not one shred of physical evidence that there are more than three dimensions.[/color]"

Perhaps we should start a separate discussion - in Philiosphy? - where we can come to some agreement on the words we use and the way we use them? [?]

 

[Nereid]

perhaps some rephrasing?

FZ+, what seems a long time ago now: The only things that are debunkable are claims that enter the grounds of science - materialist claims, that can be tested by experiment and logic. Therefore, the religion related threads that post here can only be ones that refer to tangible claims of prophecy etc, and not intangible claims (such as the existence/goodness of god) or historic stories (eg. Noah's ark.)

Perhaps a better pair of criteria might be
-> 'ability to make testable predictions', and
-> 'success of idea/theory in tests'.

Also, since this is PF, some relevance to physics would be welcome.

 

[bettysfetish]

Betty here, I'm new.
I was raised Baptist, went Agnostic, and am currently creationalist. My ties with religion have bound with my scientific knowledge.
Would anyone here perhaps consider that mabey science and religion are seeking the same answers through different "equations", if you will. One may argue that 2+2+2=6 while the other insists that 3+3 is the "Only" correct way to reach the answer. I feel that religion has given me explanations for events from the viewpoint in time now, or as of the writting of the Bible, looking backwards with explanations for everything I now see.
Whereas science has taught me to look for the explanation at "The Beginning" and looking forward through time. Considering the quantum physics at work in "the beginning", I would think that events in the old testiment can be easily explained.
Would anyone consider "That as the universe was entering "false vacume" that the expansion rate exceeded "C?" If you subscribe to that ideology then you would agree that "time&space" were pacticly at a stand still. THIS, for instance, could explain the disagreement between science and religion on how much time elapsed between creation and man.
I hope someone is intriqued here. I'll go on if I'm not totally rejected with this concept. It's all theory anyway till we find a "Quark" or "talk with God."
L8R[8)

 

[Nereid]

Hi Betty, welcome.

Since this thread is entitled "Debunking Religion", I guess FZ+ (the originator) would be OK with me asking you to provide half a dozen, specific, concrete predictions in the realm of physics from your religion. I'm thinking of things like:
- the mass of the Higgs
- the rest mass of at least one of the neutrinos
- the > TeV photon spectrum of GRBs

Some other things that would be nice include:
- the nature of 'dark energy'
- the size/mass distribution of Oort cloud objects

You may, of course, have your own physics favourites.

 

[theEVIL1]

The return of douglas!~

Jeus Mary and Joseph. Enuff already! Is this a physics forum or a META physics forume? As the late CS once said "You cannot logically debate a believer. Their faith is not based on facts, but on a need to believe."

And there you have it... Douglas rides again.

Can I PLEASE get an "AMEN?"

 

[phoenixthoth]

Originally posted by Nereid
On Sept 30, in a post earlier in this thread: "there is not one shred of physical evidence that there are more than three dimensions.[/color]"

Perhaps we should start a separate discussion - in Philiosphy? - where we can come to some agreement on the words we use and the way we use them? [?]

just because there is no physical evidence doesn't make it false. I'm a mathematician, remember. to me, most things are "true" despite lack of physical evidence. i never said i wasn't "OK" with "11 dimensions." again, just trying to say that the claim is intangible. therefore, by FZ+'s argument, that makes it unscientific and inherently indeterminate.

cheers,
phoenix

 

[phoenixthoth]

"One may argue that 2+2+2=6 while the other insists that 3+3 is the "Only" correct way to reach the answer."

anyone who says "3+3=6" is a "correct" way to get 6 is mistaken. there is no "correct" way to get 6. certainly, one can't say it's the "only" "correct" way to get 6.

of course, there may be more "elegant" ways of getting 6 or more "brute force" ways of getting 6, but any way to get 6 is just as "correct" as any other way.

there are literally uncountably many ways to get 6. (for definitions of uncountable, aleph0, and aleph1, see http://mathworld.wolfram.com/UncountablyInfinite.html . as you can tell, I've been adopting the continuum hypothesis but not in a way central to my arguments.)

i like your choice of 6 because it's the first perfect number.

cheers,
phoenix

 

[phoenixthoth]

Originally posted by Nereid
Hi Betty, welcome.

Since this thread is entitled "Debunking Religion", I guess FZ+ (the originator) would be OK with me asking you to provide half a dozen, specific, concrete predictions in the realm of physics from your religion. I'm thinking of things like:
- the mass of the Higgs
- the rest mass of at least one of the neutrinos
- the > TeV photon spectrum of GRBs

Some other things that would be nice include:
- the nature of 'dark energy'
- the size/mass distribution of Oort cloud objects

You may, of course, have your own physics favourites.

i'm not bothering to actually check what FZ+ said, but i think he said to talk about RELIGIOUS tangible claims. i doubt any religion is making claims on the above topics.

what are your physics theories and equations regarding the existence or nonexistence of God, Nereid?

cheers,
phoenix

 

[phoenixthoth]

Originally posted by theEVIL1
Jeus Mary and Joseph. Enuff already! Is this a physics forum or a META physics forume? As the late CS once said "You cannot logically debate a believer. Their faith is not based on facts, but on a need to believe."

And there you have it... Douglas rides again.

Can I PLEASE get an "AMEN?"

sometimes for people faith is based on a need to believe. but NOT always. i doubt, for instance, that hawking has a special NEED to believe that there are 11 dimensions. personally, to me this seems like douglas is suggesting that faith is based on some form of psychological inadequacy. for some people, the evidence of God hits them in the face whether they want to believe or not. many of those still don't want to believe. but when confronted with more and more evidence, they see no choice to believe despite the fact that they don't want to believe. it, for them, it certainly not based on a need to believe.

one could just as well say to darwin, before he was done with his research, had a need to believe in evolution. but i doubt that is the case. to suggest it is patronizing.

cheers,
phoenix

 

[Nereid]

what are your physics theories and equations regarding the existence or nonexistence of God, Nereid?

Well, I asked Mum and Dad about that - Doris and Nereus to most people - and they said it's nothing to do with them. Mum went and asked Seshat, cause I bugged her to (she's a bit in awe of Thoth, tho' Dad gets on with him just fine), and she agreed, but suggested asking GoG. I'd forgotten about GoG (God of the Gaps), he's so hard to find these days. Me and my sisters call him InShGo - the Incredible Shrinking God - he really has got much smaller in the last couple of thousand years.


How about we start a separate thread, somewhere in Philosophy?

 

[bettysfetish]

PHEONIXTHOTH, Hi, BETTY HERE. Did you mean you want me to show how the Higg's field can be intertwined with religion?
First off, I am "not" devoutly religious. I am a firm beleiver in the inflationary scinerio as it explains how you get "something from nothing" so to speak. If "God" or whatever you may want to refer to the intity was responsible for "Creation" then exactly how he or it accomplished this feat is not explained to us. Besides, 2000 years ago, who would have been able to grasp the concepts required to understand how it occured.
What got me started here was the thought that perhaps "We all seek the answer to "Where Have I Come From?" and that it may not be necessary for science to debunk religion or viseversa if both could except the fact that each are right.
Beside, language in the bible is symbolic and open for interpretation in several ways. When it says the heavens and Earth were created in seven days; In real time, from the viewpoint of the observer, Jesus for example it did take seven days. However from a physics viewpoint the expanding universe was exceeding "C" in it's energy state until the energy converted to mass as the Higg's Field was shed. During this hyper-expansion, if exceeding "C", time and space would be slowed until the first four or five "DAYS" if you will (as you can,t have a "day" until your on a sphere that rotates), would, from the quantum physics viewpoint take about 14.5 to 15 billion years.
I think your way ahead of me in some of your terminologies as you totally lost me with a couple of questions.
You may have to deal with me in simpler terms until I can catch up with some of you.

 

[phoenixthoth]

Originally posted by Nereid

Well, I asked Mum and Dad about that - Doris and Nereus to most people - and they said it's nothing to do with them. Mum went and asked Seshat, cause I bugged her to (she's a bit in awe of Thoth, tho' Dad gets on with him just fine), and she agreed, but suggested asking GoG. I'd forgotten about GoG (God of the Gaps), he's so hard to find these days. Me and my sisters call him InShGo - the Incredible Shrinking God - he really has got much smaller in the last couple of thousand years.


How about we start a separate thread, somewhere in Philosophy?

when i asked, "what are your physics theories and equations regarding the existence or nonexistence of God, Nereid," it was mainly a rhetorical technique employed to examine your request earler, which was, "Since this thread is entitled "Debunking Religion", I guess FZ+ (the originator) would be OK with me asking you to provide half a dozen, specific, concrete predictions in the realm of physics from your religion. I'm thinking of things like:
- the mass of the Higgs
- the rest mass of at least one of the neutrinos
- the > TeV photon spectrum of GRBs

Some other things that would be nice include:
- the nature of 'dark energy'
- the size/mass distribution of Oort cloud objects"

what I'm mainly trying to get at is that using religion to answer physics questions is like using science to answer religion questions. they just have two totally different definitions of what constitutes evidence and what constitutes a "proof." this makes using one set of tools on the other difficult if not impossible. the applications of the two endeavours also appear mostly mutually exclusive with one notable exception, perhaps among others, when it comes to explaining the origins of the universe. on that note, i see great compatibility between scientific and certain religious theories on the origins of the universe. to me it seems like one could say that God started it all and science explains the physics, and what not, of the rest.

i don't know if people still think the origin was a singularity or not, but the question remains where did "it," whatever "it" looked like, come from? even if it were proven to come from "nowhere," that doesn't seem to determine the God issue. it's plausible that an omnipotent being is capable of creating something from nothing, but plausibility doesn't constitute scientific proof. the other possibility in my mind, however unlikely, is that "it" has always existed in some form or another; there was no "beginning," only a sequence of slow and subtle or rapid and obvious metamorphases (note, this or isn't xor). this would contradict the bible directly, but it wouldn't contradict, per se, God's eternality. in that sense, even if the universe used to contain nothing (not even time), that, at least to a mathematician, is not to be equated with nonexistence. the "empty set" comes to mind. (then again, within mathematical philosophy, people debate on whether the empty set exists. the odd thing to me is that people base the foundations of number theory on the empty set (it is a modern definition of the number zero) even if they're not sure if it exists.)

perhaps the universe started when the empty set became self aware. it put a box around itself, {0}, and then 1 became {0}. 1 eventually grew into real numbers (the line), which grew into the complex numbers (a plane) and dimensions expanded as awareness grew until there was a sudden leap into the aleph0 dimension. then, it kept going from there. just kidding!

my personal opinion about starting a new thread is that once the original poster helps perpetuate whatever the current topic is, then one is inclined to follow their lead.

cheers,
phoenix

 

[bettysfetish]

Hi, Phoenix.
Hey, You know, I guess your right. It may be like having to do a job with the wrong tools; Trying to answer science questions with religious phylocifies(i know i got that word wrong). But I do think that we can wnswer religious questions with science but these types just won't attribute anything to anything else but "The Hand Of God."
I commend them for their reverent dovotion nonetheless.
I'm not leaning toward religious stuff at this site. I'd like to keep things on a scientific level and if something comes along that may explain a certain event in the Bible then so be it.
I think events most likely did start with a "Singular Event." Probably a "Quantum Fluctuation." Are you of that belief as it seems?
I have to stop for now, but have much more as I've been taking notes; the old lady is back home and I promised I'd paint the bedroom.
L8R.

 

[phoenixthoth]

actually, I'm not sure about that belief (regarding the origins) at all. for one thing, i wasn't there (as far as i remember, but I've been known to have amnesia in the past). another thing is that scientific theories about it seem to hinge on the assumption/theory that current scientific theory is constant throughout time; ie, the "laws" of physics today (within the last, say, 500 years) are what they were, say, 12 billion years ago. for this seems a difficult assertion to prove to me. i guess what I'm wondering is that even if there is a "one-inch equation" that unifies the four forces, would that be the same equation as it might have been 12 billion years ago? is that provable? if they think the universe could suddenly cotacysmically bang for no apparent reason, then why not the equations suddenly "bang" and change for no apparent reason as well? I'm not making a hard and fast claim that the "laws" did change but I'm reserving to right to doubt that they remain constant. by "laws," I'm not just talking about how Newton's law of gravity "changed" into GR; by "laws," i mean whatever are the true descriptions of reality. my doubt of constancy is partly influenced by the eastern suspicion that what we think we see isn't necessarily what is really there (one might to go so far as to call what we see an illusion, but i have a slightly more refined version of that that unifies east/west doctrine that i may post in philosophy if i get around to it).

cheers,
phoenix

 

[bettysfetish]

Ahh, no one's been here since I left.
I think "Zero" does have/or "is" a value. Do you agree?
When using "theory" to make conclusions, one must "Exprapolate" ideas and results. See if this is analogious; You want to know how many phone books one bullet will penitrate. You fire at one book(all measurments and volicities recorded) and it passes thru. Thru two books as well. Then three. If the "exiting" volocity of each firing compared to one another a "decelleration rate" can be compiled, "BUT", your out of books. I think it would be simple to "Extrapolate" the results to detirmine how many more books we need, therefore we should be able to get results without completing the test "just because we can't forsee a roadblock to our experiment." Is "that" too far off the wall?
And many scientific experiments vier off course with exciting results.
I do agree with you that this certainly does not solve the "God" connection. If they don't hear it from him, it's not news.
If "Zero" does indeed have a value, then it seems the vacuum of "No Space&Time" was a "Functional System", albeit a negitive one, for lack of a better term. And being a System, and considering the fact that "All Systems "MUST" Evolve To A Lower State Of Energy" then this would imply that "-NOTHING-", in and of itself, is an unstable system; and an unstable system must evolve.
"WHAT" would you guess might happen here? Is this the point where we just wait for a year, or mabey a trillion years, or mabey a billion trillion years for something to happen? Who Knows?? Is this the "Uncertainty Principle?"
All jokes aside,
The "box" analogy you used might be concieved as the Higg's Field; as a form of containment. And the "Leap into Alepho Dimension" sounds to me like a description akin to the point where we "entered" false vacume, which would have preceeded the "Big Bang" by about 10 -45 seconds give or take a few .000000000000000ths..
someone else must read this too, any ideas?: that extrapolate on knowns results or excepted theories? There are several theories that begin and end with the results we see today.
False Vacume didn't just start on it's own, something lead to the imbalance of matter over anti-matter to "Get The Ball Rolling" so to speak. whos got an idea here? Does anyone understand more that I about The "K"(little L)Meson? I know it's decay is not "invairiant", meaning that it does not "Always" decay equally into particle/ anti-particle. It's one of only a couple/few that don't "always" follow C.P.T. predictions. This, it seems, MUST(i think) [?]be what determined whether we were to end up made of matter or anti-matter. Once we entered "false vacume"(if you agree with the theory)then the balance would have to be "set" at that point. After "leaving" false vacume, nothing could change the balance as the nuclei have come together and atoms are beginning to form.[b(]Man-- is that too deep, or do you think I'm off the deep end?
Well we'll talk later.

 

[bettysfetish]

Just saw your post. Sounds like we're still relating.
I certainly don't mean to make an attempt to change any of your ideas and theories any more than I would like it.
I need to go soon but i'd like to mention in ref to "the laws back then." I agree that Measurments(all considered) could be of different values back then. However the laws of nature must be the same universally. This does not mean that all observers may see the same results, only the same laws.
Gotta go, but throw some more thoughts out; later.

 

[Nereid]

phoenixthoth: another thing is that scientific theories about it seem to hinge on the assumption/theory that current scientific theory is constant throughout time; ie, the "laws" of physics today (within the last, say, 500 years) are what they were, say, 12 billion years ago.

I promised myself to not post to this thread again, but ...
phoenix, I'm not sure what you intend to say here, but I would simply like to ask you what you think astronomy can say about this, beyond ~500 ly from the solar system? In particular, if I could show you a smooth continuity of phenomena from ~<10 ly out to ~12 billion ly, would that have relevance to your statement above?

(fair warning: if you say "yes", then the effort to solidly demonstrate that 'smooth continuity' will consume several years of your time)

 

[FZ+]

i think "aleph0 = aleph1" may represent, in some sense, something in reality.

If it does, then we can discuss it scientifically. If it doesn't there is no point trying to argue if it is true or otherwise to someone who does not hold the same axioms to you.

so the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, and whatever else in science that involves the indeterminate, can not be conversed about in a meaningful way?

It gives tangible predictions. The involvement of the indeterminate is utterly irrelevant, but the tangible results are. HUP provides a violation of the bell inequalities. We have found these inequalities, so until further notice HUP is true. And scientific.

that's odd. then the name "falsification" is utterly misleading if it has nothing to do with falsehood.

Yep. It is.

is it or is it not true that in science, one does the experiment without forming an expectation about the result? in other words, if you look for a certain outcome, then one may be tempted to see patterns that aren't there or fudge the data a little to get the conclusion that is desired?

It is not true. A formulation of a hypothesis which is then tested is an essential part of science. Preliminary experiments may help to give you an idea of the hypothesis to form, but testing predictions is essential. To prevent too much subjectivity getting through, we preform falsification - ie. we do the opposite and look for evidence that disproves the hypothesis. And to allow this, and so lend scientific credibility to our theory, we make our the theory as vulnerable as possible, and spread it about for people to attempt to tear it apart.

Science is realistic. No one is ever going to conduct an experiment without a desire for a particular result.

when you title this thread "debunking religion," you have set a desired outcome.

Further, this thread isn't science. This thread is a discussion to set out common boundaries. The title debunking religion shows the subject of discussion. I didn't say that this would be successful. Indeed, my repeated position is that in most cases, any attempt would be futile.

well, if I'm not understanding the statement, "insisting 1+1!= 2 is rather non-useful," i don't see how.

I am talking in two avenues.

One is formalistic - saying that maths is created for our convenience. Hence, 1+1 can equal whatever we like. We say it equals 2 usually because its helpful. And when we want, we can make it equal 0. Or any such stuff. We cannot say either is true, but rather useful in a particular context, and consistent with other matters at hand.

One is platonic. In such a case, the apparent inconsistency of the two equations is due to a lack of clarity in our language - that we mean different 1s and 2s and +s and =s in these cases. Maths is true, and is a science, because the mathematical laws are real laws and we can consider each successful prediction as a triumph of the theory of maths.

how can you say what reality is if you can't even prove you're not in a matrix in which the rules are subject to change at the whim of the robots who control it?

Physically speaking, reality is what we measure. What we can't measure, see etc is not real to us.
Ok, reject physics definition for now. If what we see is not real, then what is? That is what you have captured in your statement. If our existence is a lie, all other things are lies too, for we have no reference to make them real. In fact, we cannot even talk about reality, without experiencing it. Cypher is right - the matrix is more real than the real world.

Ok, suppose you reject both. Then change the phrasing to observation if you really have to.

that is not an acceptable definition of truth.

That's a definition you're going to have to live with, and have to use if you want to understand what I say, and many people say. Because the alternative is that nothing is true.
You can still change to relatively true, I guess, but to follow such a definition is to make truth itself pretty irelevant.

by your definition of tangible, God is tangible for it interacts with the whole universe.

Reality check. We are talking theories here. God, if one exists, may well be tangible. But beliefs in god as a theory may or may not give tangible implications. What I am saying is that ones that do give tangible predictions are debunkable, and ones that can't aren't. Warping of space gives tangible predictions. If we reject that, then no theory is tangible.

What we touch when we hold an apple is not solid. It is the ghostly prescence of an EM field, which influences various atoms and so on.

don't patronize me. it's not that i don't understand you. it's that i disagree. I'm not chalking up your disagreeance of me as a lack of understanding...

I'm not patronising you but it is clear you don't understand me. If you did, you wouldn't be arguing over the definitions. The definitions are a translation guide so you can see my earlier statement in the light I meant them to say. It doesn't matter whether you agree with them or not, but that you don't continue to misunderstand me. If you reject them, at least the use of them, it is as though you reject the alphabet. Nothing I said before will make sense, and you will quite reasonably persist in disagreeing with what I didn't mean. My position is much closer to yours than you think.

The semantics are choking this conversation. See this example.

Falsifiable = Can be tested for contradiction by reality.
but you also said this:
Falsification has nothing to do with falsehood!

Is it not clear what I meant here?

Falsifiable refers to the testibility of a theory. It doesn't say anything about the results of the test. Falsification is the act of the test. It does not say if the test is successful or not. Falsification is nothing to do with falsehood, because the falsifiability of a theory says nothing about whether it is false or not.

The flat Earth theory is a falsifiable one. So is relativity.

Another example.

since we have different view on what "tangible" means, we cannot agree on whether "11 dimensions" are tangible.

It does not matter whether you agree or not. This is an example of an application of the definitions, to show how it comes up with useful conclusions.

but when you say that about religion, you say that, "faced with this indeterminancy (where by that i mean an inability to prove it in an absolute way), it is simply impossible to have a meaningful conversation." if that is the case, it shoudl apply to science as well.

I would invite you to look through the archives of the religion forum to see what I meant. Science incorporates evidence - that is essential. If you say a religion makes a tangible claim, then viola, that religion is science. Not neccessarily true science, but science. And that is that.

In that case, I use abolute when I meant objective.

it is my deep suspician that removing such limitations is exactly what will lead us to be able to prove a theory absolutely.

And that will be the biggest disaster ever to befall mankind.

Perhaps a better pair of criteria might be
-> 'ability to make testable predictions', and
-> 'success of idea/theory in tests'.

The first is essential what I said. The second is irrelevant, as we are talking about debunkibility, not actual truthfulness.

 

[bettysfetish]

FZ+ - - Holy Cow! How many times did you put "that" through the schreder?? I enjoyed the read.
You phrase yourself well in my opinion.
KUDOS.
L8R

 

[phoenixthoth]

Originally posted by Nereid
I promised myself to not post to this thread again, but ...
phoenix, I'm not sure what you intend to say here, but I would simply like to ask you what you think astronomy can say about this, beyond ~500 ly from the solar system? In particular, if I could show you a smooth continuity of phenomena from ~<10 ly out to ~12 billion ly, would that have relevance to your statement above?

(fair warning: if you say "yes", then the effort to solidly demonstrate that 'smooth continuity' will consume several years of your time)

i understand what you're getting at. just to start off, approximately how many astrological phenomena have been observed in the 10 to 15 billion ly range?

 

[phoenixthoth]

If it does, then we can discuss it scientifically. If it doesn't there is no point trying to argue if it is true or otherwise to someone who does not hold the same axioms to you.

again, we have to be careful about what we mean by "true." you contend that truth means "is supported by reality so far." i completely reject this notion of truth entirely. if you drop "so far," i'd be more inclined to accept it. wouldn't you agree that so far, from what we observe in reality, that nothing is the same as anything greater than itself (using any reasonable definition of "greater" that you like)? if so, then aleph0 != aleph1 is a true statement (ie aleph0 = aleph1 is a false statement), using your definition of "true."

the reason why "so far" is inadequate is clear. consider the following claim:
all people who physically attack me will be and have been of african american descent.

this has been the case so far.

by your definition of truth, the claim is, therefore, true.

to me, the truth of the claim won't be revealed until I'm dead, at which point one can observe if all attacks were by african americans.

It gives tangible predictions. The involvement of the indeterminate is utterly irrelevant, but the tangible results are. HUP provides a violation of the bell inequalities. We have found these inequalities, so until further notice HUP is true. And scientific.

in my way of thinking, the HUP proves indeterminacy in certain circumstances.

I am talking in two avenues.

One is formalistic - saying that maths is created for our convenience. Hence, 1+1 can equal whatever we like. We say it equals 2 usually because its helpful. And when we want, we can make it equal 0. Or any such stuff. We cannot say either is true, but rather useful in a particular context, and consistent with other matters at hand.

One is platonic. In such a case, the apparent inconsistency of the two equations is due to a lack of clarity in our language - that we mean different 1s and 2s and +s and =s in these cases. Maths is true, and is a science, because the mathematical laws are real laws and we can consider each successful prediction as a triumph of the theory of maths.

that's fine but notice that "real" includes things that are intangible such as the law aleph0 < aleph1.

Physically speaking, reality is what we measure. What we can't measure, see etc is not real to us.
Ok, reject physics definition for now. If what we see is not real, then what is? That is what you have captured in your statement. If our existence is a lie, all other things are lies too, for we have no reference to make them real. In fact, we cannot even talk about reality, without experiencing it. Cypher is right - the matrix is more real than the real world.

so, then, is love unreal? you can measure changes in the body, try to measure changes in personality, but is that what love is? is intelligence unreal? is the width of an electron measurable? i can very well whip out a ruler and measure my "imaginary" friends; does that make them real to you?

you'll probably remind me that you started that by saying, "physically speaking." well, the reality i refer to is not bound to the physical.

"if what we see is not real, than what is?" well, the holograms we see are only a part of reality. the rest of reality consists of an entirely nonphysical counterpart i call the "concept" of the hologram. the reality of a coffee cup is the totality of the physical coffee cup plus coffee cupness. by definition, the real world is real. therefore, nothing can be more real than that. AS real, yes. I'm not saying the holograms don't exist or that they aren't real. but they're hollower than the complete picture. this is analogous to the reality of a law being comprised of both its "letter" and its "spirit".

That's a definition you're going to have to live with, and have to use if you want to understand what I say, and many people say. Because the alternative is that nothing is true.
You can still change to relatively true, I guess, but to follow such a definition is to make truth itself pretty irelevant.

i can very well live with it and reject it. i don't think that is the alternative. it's just may be that nothing is provably true. that doesn't make the concept of truth irrelevant to me.

Reality check. We are talking theories here. God, if one exists, may well be tangible. But beliefs in god as a theory may or may not give tangible implications. What I am saying is that ones that do give tangible predictions are debunkable, and ones that can't aren't. Warping of space gives tangible predictions. If we reject that, then no theory is tangible.

well, when we say space-time warpage has tangible effects on the universe, we're also talking about theories, aren't we? the existence of God theory has tangible implications. a notable claim is that God created the universe, which is a pretty substantial tangible effect on things.

a question about falsifiability. you say "can be tested..." how can you PROVE when something can or cannot be tested. isn't it always possible that it's just that we can't think of a test or that we don't have to tools to test? or is there a way to prove that no one will ever come up with a way to test it?

It does not matter whether you agree or not. This is an example of an application of the definitions, to show how it comes up with useful conclusions.

it matters if i disagree with your definitions.

I would invite you to look through the archives of the religion forum to see what I meant. Science incorporates evidence - that is essential. If you say a religion makes a tangible claim, then viola, that religion is science. Not neccessarily true science, but science. And that is that.

what makes a science true?

And that will be the biggest disaster ever to befall mankind.

there were certain quantities that were thought to contradict rational thought so much they were even given the name "irrational numbers." what actually happens is that rational thought induces a state where you're convinced something is impossible for there is no "rational" reason YOU CAN SEE why it is possible. do you think creativity is a rational process? is genius a rational process? are applying tools of creativity and genius big disasters?

The first is essential what I said. The second is irrelevant, as we are talking about debunkibility, not actual truthfulness.

well, if we're not discussing the truthfulness of religion, what's the point in debunking it?

cheers,
phoenix

 

[phoenixthoth]

Originally posted by bettysfetish
See if this is analogious; You want to know how many phone books one bullet will penitrate. You fire at one book(all measurments and volicities recorded) and it passes thru. Thru two books as well. Then three. If the "exiting" volocity of each firing compared to one another a "decelleration rate" can be compiled, "BUT", your out of books. I think it would be simple to "Extrapolate" the results to detirmine how many more books we need, therefore we should be able to get results without completing the test "just because we can't forsee a roadblock to our experiment." Is "that" too far off the wall?

this isn't quite going to make sense at first (perhaps):

i can see how extrapolation to a few more books is less risky than extrapolation to a few billion books.

in other words, extrapolating well beyond available data is often risky. sometimes extrapolating even slightly beyond available data is risky. either way, extrapolation isn't absolute truth for sure.

cheers,
phoenix

 

[bettysfetish]

Betty's back.
Well Phoenix, I'm not sure where to go with that.
A large percent, it seems, of the answers I seek can only be answered through theory and practice.
Perhaps I'll start a thread on "Creational Theory" as "most" of my questions lean towards scientific explanations up to the point of "Leaving False Vacume." This was started as "debunking religion" and I don't see much "scientificly" that relates to the bible until the "Big Bang"(i hate that term) which Most would assume to be "The Moment Of Creation."
The most exciting point during creation might have been the few milliseconds leading up to false vacume.
I looked through my books seeking a quote that might justifie best some good reasons why theory, conjecture, and exprapolation of exsisting knowledge is necessary for science to proceed. However I could not find a thing that concurred "it's not important."
I'll look for you as well as others on a new thread. I'll use the caption above. I'll drift back here, mabey, if the creational theory thread makes it to the "Bang."

 

[Nereid]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
i understand what you're getting at. just to start off, approximately how many astrological phenomena have been observed in the 10 to 15 billion ly range?

None. But if you meant 'astronomical' phenomena, please take a look at the thread I'm going to start in General Astronomy.

 

[phoenixthoth]

oops! yeah, i meant astronomical. i wonder what that freudian slip means...

 

[Nereid]

phoenixthoth: approximately how many astronomical phenomena have been observed in the 10 to 15 billion ly range?

A:
1) quasars with z > ~3
2) galaxies with z > ~3
3) the CMB (cosmic microwave background).

[edit: the relationship between z and distance is somewhat model dependent. Differences of ~10% (OOM).]

From the first year's WMAP results, the age of the universe is inferred to be 13.8 billion years. Here's a selection of papers:
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm/pub_papers/firstyear.html

Of course, the quasar we see at z = 6 (not the most distant seen) is 'no longer' ~13 billion ly out; the universe has expanded some since the light from it that we now see started its journey.

 

[phoenixthoth]

what's z?

 

[Loren Booda]

Redshift. z=[del]_[lamb]/_[lamb] , where [del]_[lamb]=_[lamb]'-_[lamb] is the change in wavelength (due to cosmological expansion) of a light ray from a distant source, _[lamb] is its emitted wavelength, and _[lamb]' is its detected wavelength. In linear (Doppler) approximation, z=v/c, where v is the recessional velocity of the source and c the speed of light.

 

[FZ+]

i completely reject this notion of truth entirely.

I don't care.

i can very well live with it and reject it.

I don't give a damn.

it matters if i disagree with your definitions.

No it does not.

Consider what I am saying to be a foreign language. The list of definitions I gave you is a dictionary to that language. You may disagree that "je" means I, or "aimer" means to like, but can you for a moment just look past that and read what I posted for what I meant?

I don't care what you think the definitions are. At this moment, I am precisely focused on one thing - getting it across to you the real meaning of what I have posted. You have, by rejecting my definitions effectively read out a French sentence as though it was written in British. I cannot simply be bother arguing any more which is the better language, or whatever.

What matters is that you are treating what I wrote as saying something it is not, because you have failed to match up the correct vocabulary to the argument.

Don't you see what you are doing is generating a strawman fallacy? I agree almost precisely with the content of your response to my "absolute proof" thing, but if I took it at face value and applied my sense of what rational means, it is complete and unadulterated BS. You are disagreeing with a target that does not exist.

Look, it would be easier if you simply posted what you think I mean, and then I'll point out the fallacies.

 

[phoenixthoth]

Consider what I am saying to be a foreign language. The list of definitions I gave you is a dictionary to that language. You may disagree that "je" means I, or "aimer" means to like, but can you for a moment just look past that and read what I posted for what I meant?

using your definitions, what you have written is internally consistent. likewise, by a mathematican's definition of truth, it is false that aleph0 = aleph1. this is also false by the scientific definition of truth because nothing in reality so far is the same as something greater than itself. (perhaps when all fields decide that something is false, that provides evidence that it is absolutely false...) you said that intangible claims are inherintly indeterminate. i still say that "aleph0 = aleph1" is a determinate intangible claim and I've even shown this to be the case using the scientific definition of truth. i would agree that SOME intangible claims are indeterminate, but not all. this leads one to question whether or not the "intangible" God existence claim is as indeterminate as you think it is, for no longer are all intangible claims indeterminate.

I don't care what you think the definitions are. At this moment, I am precisely focused on one thing - getting it across to you the real meaning of what I have posted. You have, by rejecting my definitions effectively read out a French sentence as though it was written in British. I cannot simply be bother arguing any more which is the better language, or whatever.

What matters is that you are treating what I wrote as saying something it is not, because you have failed to match up the correct vocabulary to the argument.

i don't think the scientific definition of truth is something it is not. I'm saying that is not the definition of truth. i think it does matter which is the better language. and the scientific definition of truth is clearly inferior; i indicated this by my african american claim which would be "true" by the scientific definition of truth.

how am i treating what you are writing as something it is not?

Don't you see what you are doing is generating a strawman fallacy? I agree almost precisely with the content of your response to my "absolute proof" thing, but if I took it at face value and applied my sense of what rational means, it is complete and unadulterated BS. You are disagreeing with a target that does not exist.

Look, it would be easier if you simply posted what you think I mean, and then I'll point out the fallacies.

in a strawman fallacy, the argument in question is changed to a weaker version of that argument; then the weaker version is attacked. when did i do this? in other words, when did i change your argument into a weaker version of that argument?

here's what i think you mean. nothing can be proven absolutely. that includes scientific claims, mathematical claims, and religious claims. some intangible claims are determinate and some are not. for example of the former, consider the warpage of space-time. i contend that while the effects of space-time warpage are tangible, the space-time warpage itself is not tangible. for an example of the latter, consider the God question. you consider that an intangible claim even though one of the sub-claims is that God had a tangible effect on the universe in that God created the universe. to me,
space-time warpage : effects on the universe :: God : effects on the universe. in other words, space-time warpage and God are equally tangible/intangible yet, to you, the space-time warpage claim is determinate while the God claim is not. i agree that the latter may not be determined by the scientific method but that doesn't neccessarily imply it cannot be determined period. the opening few lines of this paragraph put the three fields on equal footing, yet you consider discussion in the third field (and I'm not quoting) a waste of time. this seems as unfortunate as someone working in the third field calling the discussion of science a waste of time. I'm not arguing the utility of science but you seem to argue the utility of religion.

nash said something to this effect. rationality places limitations on one's feeling of connection to the cosmos. then i said that once we remove those limitations, the hunch is that we will be able to know the truth of certain things absolutely though proving it to someone else using axiomatic schemes and limiting definitions is probably impossible. your response was something to the effect of that being the biggest mistake of mankind. my reply intended to imply that creativity and genius are not rational processes; those are two tools in which the aforemention limitations stemming from rationality are removed. then i asked how use of those two non-rational tools would be a mistake at all, much less the biggest mistake of mankind. you never answered this. the best possible counter argument i can think of you proposing stems from the computational theory of mind which states that all mental functions are computational in nature, albeit their rationale is not understood. but i haven't gotten to the point in "how the mind works," by a so called leading computational mind theorist, where creativity and genius are discussed. I'm quite interested to see what his evidence is that creativity and genius are rational/computational in nature. this claim i am highly skeptical of.

cheers,
phoenix

 

[FZ+]

i still say that "aleph0 = aleph1" is a determinate intangible claim and I've even shown this to be the case using the scientific definition of truth.

Hence, you are talking the platonic idea of maths. In which case, yes, maths in science. It can be tested that 1+1 =2, and it can be tested by observation that the law of maths that alephfoo refers to is correct.

God is only determinate if it is tangible - if it is testable in the same way you would test alephfoo. This is a matter by definition. I did not say whether or not God had to be tangible.

i'm saying that is not the definition of truth.

And I am saying that is, in the posts I have written. You have instead surplanted your definition of truth into what I have written, I created absurd results. Of course you will.

When I am talking about truth here, that is all I mean. It may not correspond to what you consider as truth, but that is what I mean. Geddit?

how am i treating what you are writing as something it is not?

Let us take an example.

"i'm just saying "11 dimensions" is intangible. by what FZ+ said earlier, this makes it unscientific and indeterminate."
This is precisely what I did not say. I used a definition of intangible which covered the indirect effects, and that is all I mean here. However, in these arguments, you present the misleading picture that I consider something determinate if it is physically existent, and then proceeded to argue over several posts with me with the idea that you know my opinion better than I do.

"some intangible claims are determinate and some are not. for example of the former, consider the warpage of space-time. i contend that while the effects of space-time warpage are tangible, the space-time warpage itself is not tangible."
Here you have blurred my contention with my argument.

Let's try and simplify this part of the argument once and for all. I have chosen the definition of tangible/intangible to differentiate against something that gives observable effects and predictions, and something that by definition cannot. For example, the claim that God buried a gold casket filled with antimatter under London Station is clearly gibberish, but it is tangible. Meanwhile, the contention that an absolutely undetectable substance exists in the universe is intangible, because as a matter of nature it can never be observed. The idea that an inverse square relation exists for gravity is tangible, since we can measure the strength of the magnetic field, and pink fairies are also tangible. The claim that God created the universe to look exactly like it would if God did not exist is intangible. The claim that God left some sort of signature to show that God did create the universe is tangible.

In short, I am sequestering the world tangible to refer to not just entities but ideas. I am not using the word to distinguish between abstract and concrete, as you show that you think I am.

I am not saying anything about religion. I am not even attacking religion. Look at the title of the thread: "Debunking Religion". I am more or less targetting atheists here, questioning if Religion can continue to be attacked, as per the scientific method - since by the scientific method, the only way to determine truth is by attacking something. The point about the immunity of religion is that if no "tangible claims" are made, then no real "tangible attacks" can be made either. In which case, the threads boil down to either checking for consistency, or just emotional garbage on both sides.

then i said that once we remove those limitations, the hunch is that we will be able to know the truth of certain things absolutely though proving it to someone else using axiomatic schemes and limiting definitions is probably impossible. your response was something to the effect of that being the biggest mistake of mankind.

Now understand the context of that. The context is in point number one - we can never know everything. By Godel's theorem, nothing we can know can possibly be complete, and things that we must definitely think are true have often turned out not to be. By inference, I am saying that it is impossible to know anything as absolutely true, because the human mind is absolutely flawed. All we will end up would be an illusion of absolute truth, and a stagnating wall to progress. The process of knowledge relies on us asking questions, and someone taking anything as absolutely true is a fool.

rationality places limitations on one's feeling of connection to the cosmos.

What I then realized was that (presumeably) you were considering my conception of rationality at all. Rather, your example (irrational numbers) showed that you were in fact talking about things like common sense, which I consider as the delusion of absolute truth. What I considered as rational was to see things - old things, new things, old ideas, new ideas with skepticism, and continuously test them. That is often the stimulus for genius, and what differentiates genius from plain madness.

In effect, my definition of rational was the opposite of your definition of rational. The fanatic (who does not look without, but fools himself in self-righteousness) is the most irrational by my book, and the most rational in yours. Do you see?

 

[phoenixthoth]

Hence, you are talking the platonic idea of maths. In which case, yes, maths in science. It can be tested that 1+1 =2, and it can be tested by observation that the law of maths that alephfoo refers to is correct.

is "aleph0 = aleph1" a tangible or intangible claim?
just to be crystal clear, what's your definition of a tangible claim? oh wait... i think you mention this later in the post...

And I am saying that is, in the posts I have written. You have instead surplanted your definition of truth into what I have written, I created absurd results. Of course you will.

When I am talking about truth here, that is all I mean. It may not correspond to what you consider as truth, but that is what I mean. Geddit?

did you mean "i created absurd results" or "you created absurd results"? by your definition of truth, the claim "all people who will or ever have attacked me are african americans" is true because it is an observation consistent with reality so far. I'm not surplanting my definition of truth here; this is your definition. and yes, the result is absurd. do you see? do you get it? do you understand what I'm saying?

Let us take an example.

"i'm just saying "11 dimensions" is intangible. by what FZ+ said earlier, this makes it unscientific and indeterminate."
This is precisely what I did not say. I used a definition of intangible which covered the indirect effects, and that is all I mean here. However, in these arguments, you present the misleading picture that I consider something determinate if it is physically existent, and then proceeded to argue over several posts with me with the idea that you know my opinion better than I do.

"some intangible claims are determinate and some are not. for example of the former, consider the warpage of space-time. i contend that while the effects of space-time warpage are tangible, the space-time warpage itself is not tangible."
Here you have blurred my contention with my argument.

this is when i wasn't aware of what you meant by intangible. i was using a common sense definition of intangible at the time, not unlike how the scientific definition of truth isn't common sense. there's nothing wrong with redefining truth or contradicting common sense as long as the theory is internally consistent.

Let's try and simplify this part of the argument once and for all. I have chosen the definition of tangible/intangible to differentiate against something that gives observable effects and predictions, and something that by definition cannot. For example, the claim that God buried a gold casket filled with antimatter under London Station is clearly gibberish, but it is tangible. Meanwhile, the contention that an absolutely undetectable substance exists in the universe is intangible, because as a matter of nature it can never be observed. The idea that an inverse square relation exists for gravity is tangible, since we can measure the strength of the magnetic field, and pink fairies are also tangible. The claim that God created the universe to look exactly like it would if God did not exist is intangible. The claim that God left some sort of signature to show that God did create the universe is tangible.

In short, I am sequestering the world tangible to refer to not just entities but ideas. I am not using the word to distinguish between abstract and concrete, as you show that you think I am.

i agree that in your definitions of intangible and determinable, it is indeterminate whether a by definition undetectible substance exists. the thing is that I'm not saying God's presence is undetectable (some people think it is). the human consciousness is able to detect it while, as far as i know, no instrument or device can. the claim that God left some sort of signature to show that God did create the universe is tangible and, furthermore, the signature is "readable" via the human consciousness and perhaps by other methods. get it? do you see? do you understand what I'm saying?

Now understand the context of that. The context is in point number one - we can never know everything. By Godel's theorem, nothing we can know can possibly be complete, and things that we must definitely think are true have often turned out not to be. By inference, I am saying that it is impossible to know anything as absolutely true, because the human mind is absolutely flawed. All we will end up would be an illusion of absolute truth, and a stagnating wall to progress. The process of knowledge relies on us asking questions, and someone taking anything as absolutely true is a fool.

Godel's theorem refers to mathematics and mathematical axioms, which are not the same as what we know. incompleteness is that there are theorems which cannot be proven with axioms and deduction to be either "true" or "false" (in the mathematical sense). how does that suggest that it is impossible to know something that is "true?" to me, it just suggests that it is impossible to prove it. you said "someone taking anything as absolutely true is a fool." an interesting conclusion can be drawn from this. when God knows something is true, it knows that it is absolutely true (being omniscient). therefore, God is a fool. interesting... if foolness is some kind of ordered relation, that suggests that eveyone is a fool; so singling anyone out and calling them a fool is pointless for everyone is a fool by that rationale.

if there is a God, it would have the power to grant a human access to absolute truth.

john nash used to write cryptic notes on blackboards around campus. once i wrote on a blackboard, "NOTHING is the key to the universe. a FOOL sees NOTHING."

What I then realized was that (presumeably) you were considering my conception of rationality at all. Rather, your example (irrational numbers) showed that you were in fact talking about things like common sense, which I consider as the delusion of absolute truth. What I considered as rational was to see things - old things, new things, old ideas, new ideas with skepticism, and continuously test them. That is often the stimulus for genius, and what differentiates genius from plain madness.

In effect, my definition of rational was the opposite of your definition of rational. The fanatic (who does not look without, but fools himself in self-righteousness) is the most irrational by my book, and the most rational in yours. Do you see?

a set of ideas you don't seem to be skeptical about are your definitions of truth, falsifibility, tangibility, provability, etc. an interesting self-contradiction. or perhaps you are skeptical about those ideas but just aren't public about the skepticism. if you're not skeptical about your own notions of truth (etc), then, by your definition, you are irrational. you sound pretty self-righteous about your notions. do you see?

cheers,
phoenix

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Some of Einstein's Writings on Science and Religion

A site I happened upon:

http://condor.stcloudstate.edu/%7Elesikar/einstein/

 

[phoenixthoth]

thanks. I'm posting that on my forum...

 

[FZ+]

by your definition of truth, the claim "all people who will or ever have attacked me are african americans" is true because it is an observation consistent with reality so far. I'm not surplanting my definition of truth here; this is your definition. and yes, the result is absurd.

Actually, that isn't absurd. You might for instance never get attacked, which would validate this perfectly. And it gives predictions. All well and good.
Just observe that what is true today will not always be true. You have surplanted your definition of true here when you say it is absurd. In the same way, a claim can be true within a specified surrounding in evidence. Eg. If I was blind, I can say it is true to me that light does not exist. But, you, with the benefit of more evidence - like vision - can note otherwise. So my claim is true only to a certain extent, at least until the additional evidence is communicated to him.

I was nudging more towards your statements that relativity is not scientific.

Do you touch?

this is when i wasn't aware of what you meant by intangible.

This was also before you disputed that you didn't understand what I am saying, and that you disagreed with my definitions.

the claim that God left some sort of signature to show that God did create the universe is tangible and, furthermore, the signature is "readable" via the human consciousness and perhaps by other methods.

Exactly. The moment we establish the significance of consciousness as an instrument rather than a processing centre, and rule out the huge variety of rival consciousness "measurements" that say the complete opposite, and look at the evidence from the full overview.

Do you hear?

Godel's theorem refers to mathematics and mathematical axioms, which are not the same as what we know.

No, godel's theorem refer's to all formal systems of logic, including itself.

how does that suggest that it is impossible to know something that is "true?" to me

That doesn't say that at all. It says it is impossible for you to know something that is true to me, and everyone else, in an absolute fashion.

when God knows something is true, it knows that it is absolutely true (being omniscient). therefore, God is a fool.

How can God know that he knows everything? That's part of the illogic of omnisicience. Also one of the reasons that most theologies that involve omniscience choose to say that God decides not to use it. (Other arguments involve preservation of free will etc etc.)

if foolness is some kind of ordered relation, that suggests that eveyone is a fool;

No, everyone who believes that they know everything is a fool.

if there is a God, it would have the power to grant a human access to absolute truth.

Even omniscience cannot transcend logic. If it could, there is no way we can talk about it reasonably.

Do you taste?

once i wrote on a blackboard, "NOTHING is the key to the universe. a FOOL sees NOTHING."

And this proves your sanity, how?

an interesting self-contradiction. or perhaps you are skeptical about those ideas but just aren't public about the skepticism. if you're not skeptical about your own notions of truth (etc), then, by your

That is correct. I am irrational.

Definitions, by my definition () must be irrational. Because they only serve as labels for the chaos within. A think of something, and I throw a name at it - skepticism, truth, tangibility. However I try to formalise it, there is no way I can eliminate the inductive step, the sudden jump. I did not intend my thought processes to be "true", and I do not believe that there is a true instance of "correct", only conveniences that are agreed on - or at least understood, and that may be more useful in certain contexts.
Self-righteous? There is no right for me.

If someone says they are purely rational, they are either dead, or lying. We can always try to minimise our irrationality.
Look at my title, just above my avatar to the left of my post. What does it say?

We are all mad, but in different ways.

Do you smell?

The way I see it, there are two things that are attackable about my statements.

1. My claim that debates about claims that do not hold "tangibility" cannot achieve a conclusive (and so, useful) result short of finding inconsistencies. To disprove this, find a counterexample.

2. My claim that religions are not inherently unarguable.