Deceptive Japanese Whaling Season Begins

[mugaliens]

http://www.grindtv.com/outdoor/blog/22423/japanese+whalers+to+face+new+enemy+in+godzilla/" [Broken], and again, are attempting to hide their whaling activities under the guise of "scientific research."

I think their activities are utterly reprehensible and disgusting, and their attempt at deception is an affront to thinking people throughout the globe.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Do I smell "The Cove" part 2?

 

[BobG]

Will the Japanese whaling fleet be labeled pirates? Or will the Sea Shepherd boat be labeled a pirate?

 

[Mech_Engineer]

Why is killing whales any more of a problem than fishing? Because they're cuter?

 

[Dr Lots-o'watts]

I don't think it's more of a problem technically. It's just the problem chosen for this thread.

But they probably get more media attention than fish because they're mammals, relatively intelligent, cuter sure and generally more interesting to the general public.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Why is killing whales any more of a problem than fishing? Because they're cuter?

It's the deception that is in question.

Iceland whaling is also in the news:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5h_vvnYkFVF2kN-UC6JJJP6Mt8M2g?docId=CNG.8a715e6abb8e8888f916a64a424e6b92.e81 [Broken]

 

[Ivan Seeking]

http://www.grindtv.com/outdoor/blog/22423/japanese+whalers+to+face+new+enemy+in+godzilla/" [Broken], and again, are attempting to hide their whaling activities under the guise of "scientific research."

That isn't quite right. The response is at the ready, but there are no ships in sight. From the Sea Shepherd site.

Has the Japanese Whaling Fleet Surrendered?

Nisshin Maru in port on November 29Could the whale wars be over? Things are looking very good in that direction! The whalers may be close to capitulation.

It is December 1st, at least on the Japanese and Australian side of the International Date Line, but the Japanese whaling fleet remains in port...

http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-media/news-101130-1.html [Broken]

 

[merry]

Why is killing whales any more of a problem than fishing? Because they're cuter?

No, its because they're endangered.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

No, its because they're endangered.

Which whales are the Japanese primarily targeting?

 

[Office_Shredder]

The main hunt

The Japanese quota includes 935 minke, 50 fin and 50 humpback whales per season

The humpback whale and fin whale are considered endangered species by the US and some other organizations

This is of course irrelevant. The IWC exists for the purposes of regulating hunting to allow for the survival of the various whale species. It's optional and if Japan wants they can just leave it entirely (of course this could have international repurcussions politically, but that's just a problem they'll have to deal with). Hunting whales commercially under the guise of scientific research for the purposes of maintaining membership in the IWC while not abiding by its rules is fraud, plain and simple.

 

[Proton Soup]

i really don't care if people eat whales, as long as it's sustainable. just treat it like any other fishing.

 

[mugaliens]

i really don't care if people eat whales, as long as it's sustainable.

It's not, and some of the whales slaughtered by the Japanese are on endangered lists.

...just treat it like any other fishing.

Whales are mammals, not fish.

Hunting whales commercially under the guise of scientific research for the purposes of maintaining membership in the IWC while not abiding by its rules is fraud, plain and simple.

Bingo.

Do I smell "The Cove" part 2?

The cove? You mean the movie which "highlights the fact that the number of dolphins killed in the Taiji dolphin hunting drive is several times greater than the number of whales killed in the Antarctic, and reports that 23,000 dolphins and porpoises are killed in Japan every year in the country's whaling industry. The migrating dolphins are herded into a hidden cove where they are netted and killed by means of spears and knives over the side of small fishing boats." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cove_(film)" [Broken]

That one? Never seen it. Just wiki'd it.

 

[nucleargirl]

http://www.grindtv.com/outdoor/blog/22423/japanese+whalers+to+face+new+enemy+in+godzilla/" [Broken], and again, are attempting to hide their whaling activities under the guise of "scientific research."

I think their activities are utterly reprehensible and disgusting, and their attempt at deception is an affront to thinking people throughout the globe.

yeah! if they're going to eat whales then farm them like everyone else farms animals they intend to eat... don't just take it out of the wild! that's what farms are for! Same with bluefin tuna - don't eat it! there's hardly any left! Watch The Cove if you don't know how bad it is.

on a side note... how badass is that boat!

 

[mugaliens]

on a side note... how badass is that boat!

Pretty cool. Reminds me of the trimaran in Water World, although this one undoubtably has some get up and scoot.

 

[nucleargirl]

http://www.alluc.org/cartoons/watch-south-park-online/season-13/108680.html

south park, season 13 episode 11, whale whores

Of course, violence is not going to solve anything. Nations need to get together and make it not worth it for them to hunt whales.
If only whales were smarter... then they wouldn't get eaten!
I love Stan! :) he's hot... apart from that he's a kid and not real...

 

[Mech_Engineer]

yeah! if they're going to eat whales then farm them like everyone else farms animals they intend to eat... don't just take it out of the wild! that's what farms are for! Same with bluefin tuna - don't eat it! there's hardly any left! Watch The Cove if you don't know how bad it is.

Tuna farming is an up and coming industry from what I understand. It is probably possible to farm smaller whales, although it could be prohibitively expensive. I don't think farming is the sole solution because capturing from the wild is a legitimate source of food and income IMO.

on a side note... how badass is that boat!

If you're talking about Ady Gil (a.k.a. Earthrace), didn't it get run down by a Japanese fishing vessel?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MY_Ady_Gil

 

[Mech_Engineer]

http://www.alluc.org/cartoons/watch-south-park-online/season-13/108680.html

south park, season 13 episode 11, whale whores

I love Stan! :) hot... ignore that he's a kid and not real...

GREAT episode

 

[nucleargirl]

Tuna farming is an up and coming industry from what I understand. It is probably possible to farm smaller whales, although it could be prohibitively expensive. I don't think farming is the sole solution because capturing from the wild is a legitimate source of food and income IMO.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MY_Ady_Gil

I think in the past maybe we could have gotten away with taking from the wild, but nowadays there are SO many people that it isn't practical to take from the wild anymore, especially animals like whales and dolphins and tuna which take decades to mature and breed. There just aren't enough of them to sustain our demands.

 

[Office_Shredder]

I think in the past maybe we could have gotten away with taking from the wild, but nowadays there are SO many people that it isn't practical to take from the wild anymore, especially animals like whales and dolphins and tuna which take decades to mature and breed. There just aren't enough of them to sustain our demands.

There aren't enough dolphins to satisfy our demand? I didn't realize the populace had a particular taste for dolphin.

Considering that whales are not currently being hunted to extinction (the Japanese hunt isn't going to put them out of commission), I don't see how you have evidence that regulation of wild fishing (is that the right word for it?) is insufficient

 

[Proton Soup]

It's not, and some of the whales slaughtered by the Japanese are on endangered lists.

sure it is. it was sustainable for the Inuit.

Whales are mammals, not fish.

thank you Captain Obvious

 

[nucleargirl]

There aren't enough dolphins to satisfy our demand? I didn't realize the populace had a particular taste for dolphin.

Considering that whales are not currently being hunted to extinction (the Japanese hunt isn't going to put them out of commission), I don't see how you have evidence that regulation of wild fishing (is that the right word for it?) is insufficient

Yes they do - watch the cove and you'll see how many dolphins are being killed for food.

and yes they are - whales are being hunted to extinction, and its not just whales and fish - lessons from the past (Atlantic cod? Australian orange roughy? tigers? dodos? elephant bird? Tasmanian wolf?) tells us that animals do become hunted to extinction by humans. We should really know better now than to carry on our mistakes.

 

[nucleargirl]

it was sustainable for the Inuit.

The Inuit population in the whole of Canada is around 50,000. The Japanese population is over 120 million. 2500 times the inuit population. Number of whales? decreasing.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Yes they do - watch the cove and you'll see how many dolphins are being killed for food.

Lots of dolphins being killed for food does not mean that they are being hunted to extinction. Here are the types of dolphins that the Japanese primarily hunt for example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottlenose_dolphins#Conservation

Bottlenose dolphins are not endangered. Their future is stable because of their abundance and adaptability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risso's_dolphin
Conservation status: Least Concern (the lowest possible level)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantropical_Spotted_Dolphin
Conservation status: Least Concern

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Striped_dolphin
Conservation status: Least concern

 

[Mech_Engineer]

Yes they do - watch the cove and you'll see how many dolphins are being killed for food.

As was pointed out, species with plentiful numbers are being hunted. Having a little fur around the blowhole might make them sexy, but it doesn't make them immune from being killed and eaten...

and yes they are - whales are being hunted to extinction, and its not just whales...

Number of whales? decreasing.

Please provide specific links/studies of specific species of whales which are being hunted into extinction by Japanese whalers.

 

[_Tully]

The only reasons I see for the logic of anti-whale-hunting are:

1.) Intelligence.

2.) Wild animals.

Both of these are not enough reason to single them out, due to people hunting wild animals for food all of the time, and the fact that our standard livestock are highly intelligent (ie: pigs). So, it really comes down to being able to turn off the emotional attachment we have to cetaceans, or extending the same helping hand all across the animal kingdom.

On the other hand, is preventing one species from being killed for food really such a bad thing? Is saying that 'it's no different from this or that' a reason to just have a free-for-all eating all animals?

I don't know the answers of course, it's a difficult subject and I go back in forth in my head. My emotions tell me 'OH NOEZ NOT THE DOLPHINZ AND WHAAALEZ!' yet my logic can't really accept that. I eat bacon. I eat fowl.

This is all based on the assumption that this is sustainable, which is refuted by one side and supported by the other (as usual).

 

[nucleargirl]

Do you guys not understand? the chicken, beef and other animals we eat are from farms! We don't just take animals from the wild because soon there will be none left! People can eat whatever they want provided they farm them and do it sustainably! there are already lots of examples of wild animals gone extinct because of over consumption by humans. It is stupid to let it happen over and over again. It is nothing about dolphins being intelligent, it is about not making species extinct because it affects the whole ecosystem! Each species affects others and affects the environment in ways we don't completely understand and cannot predict accurately yet. So before we go and kill them all we shoudl really study their interactions better!
We may be able to learn things from these animals and in the future they may provide something we cannot do without. So I'm saying we should not kill them all before we even understand them!

 

[_Tully]

Sustainable hunting is a normal every day thing as well, that many people live off of in the United States. Nobody is saying it's okay to kill all of the whales.

 

[CRGreathouse]

The only reasons I see for the logic of anti-whale-hunting are:

1.) Intelligence.

2.) Wild animals.

Both of these are not enough reason to single them out, due to people hunting wild animals for food all of the time, and the fact that our standard livestock are highly intelligent (ie: pigs).

Dolphins (and chimps, and bonobos) are much smarter than pigs, though. (It's not obvious that this makes it wrong to hunt them, but it does make the argument plausible.)

 

[_Tully]

Dolphins (and chimps, and bonobos) are much smarter than pigs, though. (It's not obvious that this makes it wrong to hunt them, but it does make the argument plausible.)

Abosolutely, I agree. That's where my logic just flips and flops around like...A BEACHED WHALE!

*self face-palm*

Crap-jokes aside, that really is the conundrum and leads to another ethical debate on where the cutoff is. At least for myself.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

Do you guys not understand? the chicken, beef and other animals we eat are from farms! We don't just take animals from the wild because soon there will be none left! People can eat whatever they want provided they farm them and do it sustainably!

This isn't a logical argument, and is disproven by hunting communities (past and present) all around us. Hunting animals in the wild is part of nearly all cultures. Ocean fishing is hunting in the wild... so is alaskan snow crab and king crab trapping. Why are cetaceans "better" than a crab? (hint: they aren't)

there are already lots of examples of wild animals gone extinct because of over consumption by humans. It is stupid to let it happen over and over again.

You're right, there are examples of animal extinction due to hunting. But there are also examples of wild animals that are hunted all the time and yet their numbers flourish. Take for example (off the top of my head) deer in North America. "Proper conservation" is not necessarily equal to "no hunting," in fact in many cases they are quite opposite.

EDIT: Also, you're assuming because some species were hunted and went extinct, hunting was the cause of their extinction and therefore any wild animal that is hunted will go extinct...

It is nothing about dolphins being intelligent, it is about not making species extinct because it affects the whole ecosystem!

Your argument can be generalized as such: hunting can cause extinction, therefore all hunting causes extinction and should be outlawed. This argument is subject to a "hasty generalization" fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy#Converse_Fallacy_of_Accident_or_Hasty_Generalization), to name just one problem.

Each species affects others and affects the environment in ways we don't completely understand and cannot predict accurately yet. So before we go and kill them all we shoudl really study their interactions better!

Aren't humans part of the ecosystem too?

We may be able to learn things from these animals and in the future they may provide something we cannot do without.

This is basically a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi" [Broken], paired with the fact that you're assuming all cetaceans will go extinct if any hunting occurs.

So I'm saying we should not kill them all before we even understand them!

Who said anything about killing ALL of them? What happened to discussion of sustainable hunting practices?

 

[Mech_Engineer]

Dolphins (and chimps, and bonobos) are much smarter than pigs, though.

Even if this is true (please feel free to provide evidence of this fact, I'm suspicious of this claim), so what?

(It's not obvious that this makes it wrong to hunt them, but it does make the argument plausible.)

No it doesn't, intelligence does not imply a moral, ethical, or fundamental responsibility to not hunt something. Is it morally wrong for a lion to hunt a man (or a baboon, or chimp, or dolphin) because the prey is considered to be much smarter?

 

[_Tully]

Is it morally wrong for a lion to hunt a man (or a baboon, or chimp, or dolphin) because the prey is considered to be much smarter?

This is an excellent, to the point, ethics question. I've never taken an ethics course, is this addressed? I'd love to read the opinions of people much more intelligent than I.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

This is an excellent, to the point, ethics question. I've never taken an ethics course, is this addressed? I'd love to read the opinions of people much more intelligent than I.

One of the most important things learned in an ethics class is that ethical beliefs are individual beliefs. Not all cultures share the same ethical beliefs, and there isn't a universal ethical code all people live by.

A common assumption being made in this thread for example, is that hunting and eating cetaceans is wrong for whatever reason; of course, the Japanese do not feel this way.

 

[Proton Soup]

The Inuit population in the whole of Canada is around 50,000. The Japanese population is over 120 million. 2500 times the inuit population. Number of whales? decreasing.

i'm not saying all japanese should be able to eat whale. I'm saying there is a certain number that could be hunted. that number might be very low, even zero for certain species, at least until they recover from overharvesting. but they can be managed like any other food we harvest from the seas.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Why not just treat whales as we do fish?

Our appetite for fish is wreaking havoc on aquatic populations worldwide. The conservation group World Wildlife Fund predicts that if cod fisheries continue to be fished at current rates, there will be no cod left by 2022. "Seventy-five percent of fisheries are overfished," says marine biologist Enric Sala. "If nothing changes, all fisheries will have collapsed by 2050." The solution, says Sala—a National Geographic Society fellow—is involving all levels of society, from consumers to policy makers. "The solutions exist, we just need the political will to implement them at [a] large scale," he adds...

http://ocean.nationalgeographic.com/ocean/photos/oceans-overfishing/#