Depth at which thermal oscillations become negligible

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around determining the depth at which annual thermal oscillations in the ground become negligible, particularly in the context of geo-exchange systems for heating and cooling. Participants explore mathematical modeling, boundary conditions, and the behavior of temperature with depth in a simplified model of the ground.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a model of the ground as a perfectly insulated rod and seeks to understand the depth at which temperature oscillations stabilize.
  • Another participant references a document suggesting that yearly temperature variation becomes negligible at approximately 30 feet (10 meters) depth.
  • A participant suggests focusing on the time-varying part of the solution and provides a form for the temperature distribution that includes sine and cosine terms, indicating that A and B should decay with depth.
  • There is confusion regarding the derivation of the "characteristic depth" from a referenced text, with a participant questioning the origin of the term and its placement within the sine function.
  • Participants discuss substituting their proposed temperature function into the heat equation and derive expressions for both sides of the equation, leading to a system of equations involving A and B.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about their progress in solving the equations and seeks further guidance on the next steps.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the derivation of certain terms or the exact solution to the problem. There are multiple competing views on how to approach the mathematical modeling and the implications of the results.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in their understanding of the derivations and the assumptions made in the models discussed. There is also a reliance on specific boundary conditions that may not be universally applicable.

James Brady
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Hello everyone,

I am working thru some of the mathematics of geo-exchange systems (semi passive heating and cooling systems for homes) and I'm starting with a very simple model: The ground is modeled as a perfectly insulated rod (perfectly insulated because of symmetry, there is no heat flux in the horizontal direction) and I want to know the depth at which annual oscillations in temperature in the ground become negligible.

Assumptions:
  • h = 0 at the surface (only conductive cooling
  • homogeneous ground
  • surface temperatures oscillate on an annual cycle and can be modeled with a simple sine wave
  • thermal properties do not vary with temperature
So I started with the heat equation:

##\frac{\partial T}{\partial t} = k\frac{\partial^2T}{\partial x^2}## where k is the thermal diffusivity of the ground ##\frac{conductivity}{specific-heat*density}##. It is about ##0.030\frac{m^2}{day}## (reference). Most solutions to this equation involve fixed boundary conditions, for example Paul's Notes does a wonderful tutorial on the differential equation. But his boundary conditions involve fixed temperatures, while mine are different:
  • T(x=0, t) = 12.5*sine(t) + 12.5 (Imaginary weather, 1 degree is approximately a day).
  • T(x -> inf , t) = 25. Here I'm making the assumption that thermal oscillations have stabilized at an infinite soil depth.
So I don't know how to solve this differential equation with these boundary conditions and am reaching out for some guidance. Any kind of corrections or guidance would be sweet. One thing I have considered: I don't necessarily need an exact solution, I only want to know at what depth the temperatures get fairly stable, I want to know how deep I need to drill (how much $$ I need to spend) to make something like this work. So maybe I don't necessarily need a solution, just an understanding of the general behavior with respect to depth would be good.

Also, I can use numerical methods but I don't want to because I'm sentimental and like analytical things.
 
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You're only interested in the time varying part of the solution, so forget about those constant values. Let T=A(x) sin ωt + B(x) cos ωt. You have enough information to solve for A(x) and B(x). Let A and B approach zero at large x, and let A and B match the boundary temperature variation at x = 0. The result should be an exponential decay with depth.

Chet
 
Sorry I've had the flu and have been out of commission for a bit.

I pulled up "Soil Physics" by Hillel and he went thru his derivation of the problem, but I don't get how he obtained the "characteristic depth." He gives it as ##d =\sqrt{\frac{2D_h}{\omega}}## I mean the model looks perfect, I'm just not sure how he got that term for the exponential and I don't know why it belongs inside the sine function either.
 
James Brady said:
Sorry I've had the flu and have been out of commission for a bit.

I pulled up "Soil Physics" by Hillel and he went thru his derivation of the problem, but I don't get how he obtained the "characteristic depth." He gives it as ##d =\sqrt{\frac{2D_h}{\omega}}## I mean the model looks perfect, I'm just not sure how he got that term for the exponential and I don't know why it belongs inside the sine function either.
Can you please show the equation for the final result?

Chet
 
He starts out by approximating the temperature at the surface as a sine wave:

##T(t,0)=T_{ave}+A_0sin\omega t## [equation 12.26]

He then says that the temperature at any depth can be represented by the function

##T(t,z)=T_{ave}+A_zsin[\omega t + \phi_z]##

"In which A_z is the amplitude at depth z. Both A_z + phi_z are functions of z but not of t. They can be determined by substituting the solution of 12.26 in the differential equation ##\frac{\partial T}{\partial t} =k \frac{\partial^2 T}{\partial x^2}## this leads to the solution ##T(t,z)=T_{ave}+A_0sin[\omega t - z/d]/e^{-z/d}##"

And d is the damping depth at which point the temperature amplitude equals 1/e or about 0.37

I don't understand what he meant by "solution of 12.25", that looks like it already is a solution and I couldn't understand how he put that into the heat equation.
 
Have you tried solving the problem yourself using the approach I recommended in post #3, with ##T(z,t)=T_{ave}+A(z) \sin ωt + B(z) \cos ωt##? This is equivalent to the form that he assumed in his analysis. Show me what you get if you substitute this into the PDE.

Chet
 
Chestermiller said:
Have you tried solving the problem yourself using the approach I recommended in post #3, with ##T(z,t)=T_{ave}+A(z) \sin ωt + B(z) \cos ωt##? This is equivalent to the form that he assumed in his analysis. Show me what you get if you substitute this into the PDE.

Chet

If I plug ##T_{ave}+A(z)sin(\omega t) + B(z)cos(\omega t)## into ##\frac{\partial T}{\partial t}=k\frac{\partial^2 T}{\partial x^2}##

for the LHS, I get
##\frac{\partial T}{\partial t} = A(z)\omega cos(\omega t) - B(z)\omega sin(\omega t)##

for the RHS, I get
##k\frac{\partial^2 T}{\partial x^2} = k(A(z)''sin(\omega t) +B(z)''cos(\omega t))##

So I have:
##A(z)\omega cos(\omega t) - B(z)\omega sin(\omega t)=k(A(z)''sin(\omega t) +B(z)''cos(\omega t))##

I'm not sure what kind of progress I've made here tho...
 
James Brady said:
If I plug ##T_{ave}+A(z)sin(\omega t) + B(z)cos(\omega t)## into ##\frac{\partial T}{\partial t}=k\frac{\partial^2 T}{\partial x^2}##

for the LHS, I get
##\frac{\partial T}{\partial t} = A(z)\omega cos(\omega t) - B(z)\omega sin(\omega t)##

for the RHS, I get
##k\frac{\partial^2 T}{\partial x^2} = k(A(z)''sin(\omega t) +B(z)''cos(\omega t))##

So I have:
##A(z)\omega cos(\omega t) - B(z)\omega sin(\omega t)=k(A(z)''sin(\omega t) +B(z)''cos(\omega t))##

I'm not sure what kind of progress I've made here tho...
You've done very well. The next step is to collect the terms multiplying cosωt and sinωt and re-express the equation in factored form.

Chet
 
  • #10
##cos(\omega t)(\omega A(z) - kB(z)'') - sin(\omega t)(\omega B(z) + kA(z)'') = 0##
 
  • #11
James Brady said:
##cos(\omega t)(\omega A(z) - kB(z)'') - sin(\omega t)(\omega B(z) + kA(z)'') = 0##
Good. Now, since cos and sin are orthogonal, their coefficients in this equation must individually be equal to zero in order for this equation to be satisfied at all values of t. This gives you two 2nd order ODEs in the two unknowns A and B. What are those two equations (you can now drop the z indication on A and B since we know that A and B are functions of z)?
 
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