Derivative when you just have Constraints

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Discussion Overview

The discussion explores the concept of derivatives in the context of constraints among multiple variables, particularly when these constraints do not take the form of one variable being a function of others. It examines the extension of derivative concepts to scenarios involving differentiable manifolds and the implications for calculating derivatives under such constraints.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes that if x1 is defined as a function of other variables, the derivative dx1/dxi can be computed if the function is differentiable.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of differentiable manifolds, suggesting that constraints can be expressed as g(x)=0, where g is a differentiable function, leading to a manifold of lower dimension.
  • A participant questions whether a specific derivative can be computed at a given point on the unit circle, seeking clarification on the implications of the example provided.
  • In response, it is noted that x1 can be parametrized using x2 on the unit circle, allowing for the computation of the derivative in local coordinates.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion contains multiple viewpoints on how to approach derivatives under constraints, with no consensus on a singular method or interpretation. Participants explore different mathematical frameworks without resolving the overarching question of extending derivatives beyond standard forms.

Contextual Notes

The discussion involves assumptions about the differentiability of functions and the nature of constraints, which may not be universally applicable. The dependence on specific examples and the need for local coordinates in calculations are also noted as potential limitations.

mXSCNT
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Suppose that you have a set of real variables {x1,x2,...,xn}. If x1 = f(x2,x3,...,xn) then this represents a constraint on all the variables. In this case, it's possible to find dx1/dxi as long as f is differentiable. But not all possible constraints among the xj are of this form. How might one extend the concept of derivative to the case when the constraint on all the variables is not necessarily that one variable is a function of the others?
 
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Welcome to the world of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_manifold" !

Suppose you have a differentiable function [tex]g:\mathbb{R}^n\to\mathbb{R}^k[/tex] and your constraints are given by the equation g(x)=0 (this is the general form). If the function g is "nice", for example if 0 is a regular value of g, then the set where g(x)=0 is a differentiable manifold of dimension n-k. As an example, take [tex]g(x)=x_1^2+x_2^2-1[/tex], then the resulting manifold is the unit circle.
One can then define the derivative of a differentiable function between manifolds abstractly, but to get partial derivatives (and do concrete calculations) you need to choose local coordinates (aka a chart) on the manifold.
 
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Does your example allow you to say that [tex]\frac{dx_1}{dx_2}\big|_{x_1=x_2=\frac{1}{\sqrt(2)}} = -1[/tex]?
 
Yes, [tex]x_1[/tex] defines a real-valued function on the unit circle, and near the point [tex](1/\sqrt{2},1/\sqrt{2})[/tex] one can "parametrize" the circle by [tex]x_2[/tex], i.e. [tex]x_2[/tex] gives differentiable local coordinates. In these coordinates [tex]x_1=\sqrt{1-x_2^2}[/tex] and you can simply compute the usual derivative.
 

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