Deriving Doppler Effect Frequency w/ Stationary Person & Moving Source

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around deriving the formula for the frequency observed in the Doppler effect when a stationary person observes a moving sound source. The focus includes the relationship between the velocities involved and how they affect the observed frequency and wavelength.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a formula for the observed frequency, suggesting that the total velocity observed by a stationary person is the sum of the speed of sound and the speed of the sound source.
  • Another participant notes that when the source is moving away, the wavelength increases, leading to a decrease in frequency, and suggests a possible sign change in the formula.
  • A participant questions why the velocity of sound remains constant regardless of the motion of the source, comparing it to a person running on a moving train and suggesting that the velocities should add together.
  • Another participant clarifies that the speed of sound is determined by the medium (air) and remains constant, regardless of the motion of the sound source.
  • One participant provides an analogy involving sound in a moving box, indicating that the speed of sound to an external observer would be the sum of the box's speed and the speed of sound within it.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between the velocities of the sound source and the speed of sound, with some agreeing on the constancy of sound speed in a medium while others question this principle. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of moving sources on observed frequency.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the conditions under which the Doppler effect is applied, particularly concerning the constancy of sound speed and the effects of relative motion between the source and observer.

annamal
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Can you derive the formula for frequency observed from doppler effect with stationary person and moving sound source away from the person like this:
##v_t = v + v_s## where ##v_t## is the total velocity observed by stationary person from moving sound, v is velocity of sound and ##v_s## is velocity of sound source.
$$v = \lambda f$$
$$f_o = (v + v_s)/\lambda_o$$ where ##f_o## is frequency observed and ##\lambda_o## is wavelength observed
 
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annamal said:
... from doppler effect with stationary person and moving sound source away from the person ...
If moving away, the wavelength will be longer so the frequency will be lower.
Maybe you need to change the sign to (v - vs).
 
Baluncore said:
If moving away, the wavelength will be longer so the frequency will be lower.
Maybe you need to change the sign to (v - vs).
I guess my question is not very clear. What I am asking is why the velocity of sound is constant regardless of whether the source be moving. Wouldn't the velocity of sound be added to the speed of source? I am likening it to a person running on a moving train. To a stationary viewer the velocity of runner = velocity of runner on train + velocity of moving train.
 
annamal said:
What I am asking is why the velocity of sound is constant regardless of whether the source be moving. Wouldn't the velocity of sound be added to the speed of source?
Because sound is dependent only on the air. The speed is determined by the medium.
annamal said:
I am likening it to a person running on a moving train. To a stationary viewer the velocity of runner = velocity of runner on train + velocity of moving train.
If you put some air in a box and move the box, the then speed of a sound wave to an external observer IS the speed of the box plus the speed of sound in the box.
 
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