Deriving Special Relativity: Force, Acceleration, and Velocity

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the derivation of the relationship between force, acceleration, and velocity in the context of special relativity, as presented in Wikipedia. Participants explore the implications of relativistic dynamics and the definitions of momentum and force in different reference frames.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the relationship from Wikipedia and requests a derivation.
  • Another participant explains the transition from Newton's second law to relativistic dynamics, introducing the concept of proper time and four-vectors.
  • Questions arise regarding the use of proper time in the derivatives for force, with one participant suggesting that using proper time could lead to a force four-vector.
  • A participant inquires whether the four-force is what an accelerated observer measures, contrasting it with the force measured by an inertial observer.
  • Discussion includes the relativity of velocity and the definition of stationary versus non-accelerating observers, with some participants expressing confusion about how to define these terms.
  • Another participant raises a point about the fourth component of four-velocity and its relationship to time, suggesting that the interpretation of time as imaginary may affect the understanding of this component.
  • One participant seeks clarification on the formula for the acceleration perceived by an accelerated observer, referencing the rate of change of rapidity with respect to proper time.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the definitions and implications of force and velocity in relativistic contexts. There is no consensus on the best approach to defining these terms, and multiple competing views remain regarding the use of proper time and the nature of acceleration.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the complexity of transforming measurements between different observers and the implications of acceleration being absolute rather than relative. There are unresolved questions about the definitions of stationary and non-accelerating observers, as well as the interpretation of time in the context of four-vectors.

snoopies622
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Wikipedia's 'special relativity' entry gives the following relationship between force, acceleration and velocity:

[tex] \vec f=\gamma m \vec a + \gamma^3 m \frac {\vec v \cdot \vec a}{c^2}\vec v[/tex]

but without derivation. Could someone tell me how one arrives at this?
Thanks.
 
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Sure.

First, a quick non-relativistic primer to make sure we start on the same page.
Newton's second law is F = dp/dt. And p=mv. As long as the mass of an object is constant, this can be rewritten F = dp/dt = m dv/dt = m a. In some introductory classes they only give F=ma for simplicity, but please remember Newton's second law is F = dp/dt.

Okay, now to relativistic dynamics. Since v = dx/dt, and different observers can't agree on measurements of time or distance, it is clear the ratio of them will transform even worse. For convenience, we'd like something that transforms with the lorentz transformations. This can be accomplished if we change dt to d'tau' where tau is the proper time of the object whose velocity we're measuring. Proper time is an invarient and thus all observers will agree upon it and make things easier. So now we have components of a four-vector V = dx / dtau. Of course dx transforms just like x, and as mentioned tau and thus dtau are invariant. It may seem a bit odd that we just redefined velocity as a ratio of a length measured in one frame and a time measure in a different frame, but the simplicity this gives is well worth it.

Okay, now to momentum. Just define momentum P = mV, where mass is the rest mass of the object (and thus an invariant) and V is our four-vector. Since m is invariant and V transforms with the lorentz tranformation, so will P ... thus it is a four-vector as well.

Alright, so now we "update" Newton's second law to use this new definition of momentum. In the non-relativistic limit P = mV -> mv (where v is the ordinary velocity), so this is a reasonable extension (and the standard convention). Also, a quick note that due to time dilation we can also write dtau = (1/gamma) dt, thus the spatial parts of the four vector momentum are gamma m v.

F = (d/dt) gamma m v.

Again, in the non-relativistic limit this reduces to the usual F = (d/dt) mv.

Since gamma = 1/sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2), and v can depend on time, this derivative gets messy, but is merely an exercise at this point. Taking the derivative yields the result you copied from wikipedia.

I hope that helped you see where that came from.
 
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Got it, thanks!

A quick follow-up, if I may: why don't we use proper time for both derivatives? In other words, why is F = (d/dt) gamma m v instead of (d/dtau) gamma m v?
 
snoopies622 said:
A quick follow-up, if I may: why don't we use proper time for both derivatives? In other words, why is F = (d/dt) gamma m v instead of (d/dtau) gamma m v?
Yes indeed, you can do that to make a force four-vector. This is sometimes referred to as the Minkowski Force.

The force four-vector is also mentioned at the end of the wikipedia section you asked about in your openning post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity#Force
 
Is the four-force what is measured by the accelerated observer while the force described in entry #1 what is measured by the inertial observer?
 
JustinLevy said:
Okay, now to relativistic dynamics. Since v = dx/dt, and different observers can't agree on measurements of time or distance,

but velocity is relative. relative to itself everything is stationary. we can only speak of an objects velocity relative to some stationary observer. all observers will agree on how that stationary observer will measure distance and time.

also if the length of the four velocity vector is always c because traveling through space causes it to move slower through time then it seems like the fourth component of four velocity should be the derivative of tau with respect to T (because that gets smaller as you go faster). what am I missing here?

edit:wait, time is imaginary so the fourth component would need to get bigger not smaller. ok. but my first point still seems valid.

edit again:it actually seems to work either way.
 
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Quote:-

----we can only speak of an objects velocity relative to some stationary observer---

And how do we decide who is stationary.

Matheinste.
 
matheinste said:
Quote:-

----we can only speak of an objects velocity relative to some stationary observer---

And how do we decide who is stationary.

Matheinste.

ok. I guess I didnt explain myself very well. replace the word 'stationary' with 'nonaccelerating'.it occurs to me that since acceleration isn't relative that it would make sense to define velocity and force in terms of it. someone posted something to the effect that different observers will even agree on the perceived acceleration. I'll have to try to find it.

whats the formula for the amount of acceleration perceived by the accelerated object? (apparently its the rate of change of rapidity with respect to proper time)
 
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