Deriving T(\theta,\tau) from Definition of $\otimes$

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the expression T(θ, τ) from the definition of the tensor product (⊗) in the context of bilinear mappings. Participants explore the relationship between elements of dual spaces and their corresponding bases, focusing on the mathematical properties and definitions involved in this derivation.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant attempts to prove that T(θ, τ) can be expressed as T^{iα}(e_i, f_α) using the definition of ⊗, stating that T: V^* × W^* → ℝ.
  • Another participant questions the correctness of the initial derivation and suggests that the formulation was incorrect from the start, leading to a revised expression involving e_i ⊗ f_α.
  • There is a discussion about the definition of ⊗, with one participant asserting that T(θ, τ) = v ⊗ w(θ, τ) = v(θ) · w(τ) is a valid interpretation, while another challenges the generality of this statement.
  • One participant emphasizes that T can be expressed as T^{iα}(e_i ⊗ f_α)(θ, τ) and seeks clarification on the existence of the coefficients T^{iα} in this context.
  • Participants discuss the implications of linearity and the relationships between the elements of the dual spaces and their bases.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is no consensus on the correctness of the initial derivation or the definitions used. Multiple competing views remain regarding the interpretation of the tensor product and the formulation of T(θ, τ).

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the definitions and relationships involved, particularly regarding the nature of the mappings and the assumptions underlying the derivations. The discussion highlights the complexity of bilinear mappings and the tensor product in the context of dual spaces.

cathalcummins
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Hi, I have a quick question about a derivation that has annoyed me all day. I am trying to prove, from the definition of \otimes that:

T(\theta,\tau)=T^{i\alpha}(e_i,f_\alpha)

Where \theta \in V^* and \tau \in W^*

T: V^* \times W^* \mapsto \mathbb{R}

and where V has basis e_i and W has basis f_\alpha. And where T^{i\alpha}=T(e^i,f^\alpha).

My lecturer only gave us the definition for \otimes where the it operated between elements of the dual basis, namely;

f\otimes g (v,w)=f(v) \cdot g(w)

\forall v \in V, w \in W and \forall f \in V^*,g \in W^*.

So back to the question; here is my attempt:

We wish to derive the following expression for T \in V^{**} \otimes W^{**}:

T(\theta,\tau)=T^{i\alpha}(e_i,f_\alpha)

Where \theta \in V^* and \tau \in W^*

T: V^* \times W^* \mapsto \mathbb{R}

and where V has basis e_i and W has basis f_\alpha.

Okay so:

Step 1: V^{**} \otimes W^{**} \simeq V \otimes W so that T \in V \otimes W.Step 2: T(\theta,\tau)=T(\theta_i e^i, \tau_\alpha f^\alpha)=\theta_i \tau_\alpha T(e^i,f^\alpha)

And using the obvious notation:

T(\theta,\tau)=T^{i\alpha}\theta_i \tau_\alpha

I am not sure where to go from here as I am unsure of the nature of T(\theta,\tau), I mean is it the same as T(\theta(v),\tau(w))=\theta \otimes \tau(v,w).

I apologise if this is beneath all of you but this has really been bugging me.
 
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Okay I think I am just after getting this. After thinking hard about the problem I think I might have resolved it. The thing I was trying to derive was wrong to begin with!

I have the problem wittled down to two final technicalities.

The first line has changed to:

T(\theta,\tau)=T^{i\alpha}(e_i\otimes f_\alpha)(\theta, \tau)

Where \theta \in V^* and \tau \in W^*

T: V^* \times W^* \mapsto \mathbb{R}

and where V has basis e_i and W has basis f_\alpha. And where T^{i\alpha}=T(e^i,f^\alpha).

For \otimes where it operates between elements of V,W we have

1. [Is this definition of \otimes correct?];

T(\theta, \tau)=v \otimes w (\theta, \tau)=v(\theta)\cdot w(\tau) \equiv \theta(v) \cdot \tau(w)

2. [Are these expressions indeed equivalent?]

\forall v \in V, w \in W and \forall \theta \in V^*,\tau \in W^*.

So assuming that all previous results hold:

T(\theta, \tau)= \theta(v) \cdot \tau(w)

Now we can just use linearity of the elements V^*,W^* to get:

T(\theta, \tau)= v^i w^\alpha \theta(e_i) \cdot \tau(f_\alpha)

Now we look at the quantity:

e_i \otimes f_\alpha(\theta, \tau)=e_i \otimes f_\alpha(\theta,\tau)= e_i(\theta) \cdot f_\alpha(\tau)=\theta(e_i)\cdot \tau(f_\alpha)

by previous assumed-correct relations (1,2); so that

T(\theta, \tau)=v^i w^\alpha \theta(e_i) \cdot \tau(f_\alpha)= v^i w^\alpha e_i \otimes f_\alpha(\theta, \tau)

Again by (1,2)

Further, let us define, as usual T^{i\alpha}=T(e^i,f^\alpha)=v(e^i)\cdot w(f^\alpha)

Which, if (1,2) again hold gives;

T^{i\alpha}= e^i(v) \cdot f^\alpha(w)

So from linearity again:

T^{i\alpha}= e^i(v^j e_j) \cdot f^\alpha(w^\beta f_\beta)

And following the usual routine:

T^{i\alpha}= v^i w^\alpha

And consequently;

T(\theta, \tau)= v^i w^\alpha \theta(e_i) \cdot\tau( f_\alpha)

becomes:

T(\theta, \tau)= v^i w^\alpha e_i \otimes f_\alpha(\theta, \tau)

finally;

T(\theta, \tau)= T^{i\alpha} e_i \otimes f_\alpha(\theta, \tau)

\Box

Everything hinges on those two questions.
 
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Hello. I'm going to be taking an exam on differential geometry on the Wednesday of next week. Let's see...

cathalcummins said:
The first line has changed to:

T(\theta,\tau)=T^{i\alpha}(e_i\otimes f_\alpha)(\theta, \tau)

Where \theta \in V^* and \tau \in W^*

T: V^* \times W^* \mapsto \mathbb{R}

and where V has basis e_i and W has basis f_\alpha. And where T^{i\alpha}=T(e^i,f^\alpha).

This looks good. T^{i\alpha} are only real numbers, so what you wrote in the first post didn't make sense, but this does.

For \otimes where it operates between elements of V,W we have

1. [Is this definition of \otimes correct?];

T(\theta, \tau)=v \otimes w (\theta, \tau)=v(\theta)\cdot w(\tau) \equiv \theta(v) \cdot \tau(w)

I don't understand what those v and w are. In general a bilinear mapping

<br /> T:V^*\times W^*\to \mathbb{R}<br />

cannot be written as

<br /> T=v\otimes w<br />

where

<br /> v:V^*\to\mathbb{R}<br />

<br /> w:V^*\to\mathbb{R}<br />

are linear. That is a special case.

There's not much to prove. It's like this:

<br /> T = T^{i\alpha} (e_i\otimes f_{\alpha})\quad\implies\quad T(\theta,\tau) = T^{i\alpha} (e_i\otimes f_{\alpha})(\theta,\tau)<br />

:smile:

Only thing that I can see, that needs some kind of proof, is that the numbers T^{i\alpha} exist, so that the T can be written like that.

The definition of \otimes (in this context) is

<br /> (v\otimes w)(\theta,\tau) = v(\theta)\; w(\tau)<br />

where there is an usual product of real numbers on the right. This was your equation in the middle, but the other equations on left and right seem stranger.
 
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Thank you, sir.
 

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