Designing a most powerful/efficient vacuum

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    Designing Vacuum
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the design and materials needed to create a powerful and efficient vacuum system capable of holding a 30-pound weight against a vertical wall. Participants explore various concepts, materials, and mechanical designs related to vacuum technology, hovercraft principles, and wall-climbing mechanisms.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • One participant inquires about the design requirements for a vacuum strong enough to hold weight on a wall.
  • Another questions how to create a vacuum around the wheels of the device.
  • A participant explains the limitations of vacuum pressure, noting that achieving a perfect vacuum is exponentially difficult and that a 99% vacuum can provide sufficient force.
  • There is a suggestion that the design resembles an inverted hovercraft, which presents unique sealing challenges.
  • Some participants propose using elastomer materials for sealing, while others suggest that a partial seal might suffice for suction.
  • Discussion includes considerations of wall texture and potential design elements like using pool noodles or caterpillar tracks instead of wheels.
  • Participants reference calculations similar to those used for hovercrafts, emphasizing the relationship between static pressure, airflow, and suction force.
  • Concerns are raised about the feasibility of the suction required to hold objects against a wall, with some expressing skepticism about the effectiveness of small devices demonstrated in videos.
  • There is a mention of the need for a rigid frame and the potential for noise produced by the vacuum system.
  • One participant expresses confusion about the mechanics of creating suction, seeking clarification on fan operation.
  • Another participant shares a personal connection to the development of wall-climbing technology and suggests minimizing energy consumption by using sticky wheels.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of agreement and skepticism regarding the feasibility of the proposed vacuum system. There are multiple competing views on the effectiveness of various materials and designs, and the discussion remains unresolved on several technical aspects.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the complexity of sealing mechanisms, the importance of surface area in suction calculations, and the challenges posed by different wall textures. There are unresolved questions about the specific materials and designs that would be most effective.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to individuals exploring vacuum technology, robotics, mechanical engineering, and design principles related to wall-climbing devices.

Paulo Serrano
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I'm wondering what is required in terms of design and materials in order to produce a vacuum that is powerful and efficient. I need a vacuum powerful enough to hold a 30 pound weight on a vertical wall (and move around on the wall with wheels)
 
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How do you intend to create the vacuum around the wheels?
 
You can never get more than 1 atmosphere of pressure from a vacuum. As you get a closer to a perfect vacuum you only approach this figure and of course it becomes exponentially harder and harder to reach. To just get some force you only need to get a 99% vacuum.

The TOTAL amount of force will depend on the surface area under the vacuum, a 1cm^2 path will give you about 1Kg, a 1m^2 will hold 10 tons.
What is probably going to be tricky is to seal the edges of the vacuum in such a way that they can still move while not allowing any air in.
 
Sounds like an 'inverted' hovercraft to me.
 
Exactly, but a real hovercraft is much easier to seal the skirts.
The weight of the craft gives you a good seal and you turn up the power to break it, an inverted hovercraft you have no seal wthout power - a bit less stable to get started.
 
Yeah, I didn't think of that. I wonder if some elastomer similar to 'Slime' might be an appropriate material. It would be difficult to move over a surface, but it sure as hell should provide a seal.
 
Well does it really have to seal completely to provide suction? I'm thinking just a partial seal with a little bit of the air escaping will still allow the movement and the ability to stay on the wall.
 
Is the wall flat? If it was the texture of sealed and painted concrete block and has a 1/4" deep grout joints every 8" to 16" then your job just got a little more complex.

Maybe your skirt can be a kids pool noodle float toy. That should compress some, and perhaps coat it with something slick (not sticky).

I would consider caterpillar track drive over wheels. How about many many small wheels or castors?
 
  • #10
The calculations are exactly the same as for a hovercraft. You have a fan with a certain static pressure and airflow and a skirt some distance from a wall (thus giving you an area and a velocity of airflow). Static pressure times skirt area equals suction force. Pick a fan and see what airflow you get with what suction force and from that, calculate how far the skirt can be from the wall.

There are many threads about hovercraft and online calculators. They'll work fine here.

Oh, one thing, though: the force you are looking for is not the weight of the craft, but the normal force toward the wall. The wheel friction is what actually holds up the weight of the craft. So your attraction/normal force will need to be somewhere on the order of double the weight of the craft (with a .5 coefficient of friction).
 
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  • #11
Man you guys know a lot. :) Even though I don't understand everything you said I'll take your advice and look for the hovercraft stuff.
 
  • #12
Based on the example pictures I guess only four wheels are not a problem if the frame is rigid enough. Kind of looks like the Mars rover.

You are not trying to peek over the wall at a local nudist colony are you?:biggrin:
 
  • #13
I'll bow to your guys' greater wisdom on the subject but I would have thought that the suction required would be too high to hold up any reasonably-sized object. I would would dismiss the video as hoaxed, as I can't see how that little thing could be so small and still hold itself to a brick wall.

Also, how stealthy can it be if it's as loud as a Hoover?
 
  • #14
DaveC426913 said:
Also, how stealthy can it be if it's as loud as a Hoover?
maybe it gets used with a little cover fire or after a few explosions have already taken place.

Good question actually.
 
  • #15
DaveC426913 said:
I'll bow to your guys' greater wisdom on the subject but I would have thought that the suction required would be too high to hold up any reasonably-sized object. I would would dismiss the video as hoaxed, as I can't see how that little thing could be so small and still hold itself to a brick wall.
I didn't make any claims about feasibility - Paulo will have to do the calculations I described, then find out if there are any reasonable-sized fans that meet the requirements.
 
  • #16
Yeah... that thing hurt my ears.
The video looks real enough, but I'm also having a bit of a credibility problem. My special area of interest is the part where the front and rear sections sequentially detach from the wall in order to turn the corner. New we have one little bitty thing holding up twice as much weight as usual, and without even having the friction of the other wheels to lessen the torque around the support point. (In fairness, though, it does seem to rotate downward until it reattaches the second section.) This is not the first wall-crawling machine that I've seen, but it is the first one that can handle bricks. I'd like to find out more about it.
 
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  • #17
Paulo Serrano said:
Man you guys know a lot. :) Even though I don't understand everything you said I'll take your advice and look for the hovercraft stuff.
We want you to learn for yourself (as opposed to doing your calculations for you), but give it a shot and then come back with more questions. We'll give you another push.
 
  • #18
I recently stumbled across an web-page and picture of a caterpillar walking machine hovercraft. The pad in a long line of other pads would inflate and then deflate causing the contraption to move forward in sequence.

I suppose one could do the same thing with suction power.

I'll post it when I find it, but it might be a while.
 
  • #19
Russ, I really appreciate that you want me to learn for myself. I am still a little bit confused though and wouldn't mind a point in the right direction. (like a link to one of the calculators) Cause I haven't been able to find them.

Also does anyone know what kind of material is good for this type of work.

EDIT: Also, I'm like 99% sure that video is real. It's developed by a big company and the technology is actually patented.
 
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  • #20
Ok, I'm sorry for double posting but I have one more question. You said that the calculations required were the same as for a hovercraft, except a fan is a fan and will blow away no matter what. What do I use to create the suction? Just invert the fan blades or what.

I found a calculator and it has given me confidence to actually try making this but I don't want to blow I want to suck.
 
  • #21
By North American standards, your last sentence is not something that you'd want to immoralize amongst strangers (unless your middle name is Arildno).:rolleyes:
 
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  • #22
I have been stepping so widely around that one...
 
  • #23
Well if you guys tell me then I can show you guys how it sucks and blows. But it'll cost you.
 
  • #24
Ok, anyway... you're overthinking this. If you have a fan sitting on the floor blowing air at you, you can get up and walk around to the other side of the fan and it'll suck air away from you. That's all there is to making a fan go from blow to suck: for your application, just connect the duct to the other end of the fan.

Anyway, here's a long thread with a lot more explanations and a link to a calculator program: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=150313&highlight=hovercraft
 
  • #25
paul serrano~

I worked with the professor who started this entire wall-climbing craze. Your best bet is to rely as little on energy-consumption as possible. Energy requires heavy batteries & so forth. Just use sticky wheels.

"Keep it as simple as possible, but no simpler."
- Albert Einstein
 
  • #26
Well yeah I want to use every method possible to make it as efficient as possible. I'll look into the sticky wheels, but they probably won't be enough to hold it up by itself, but they'll probably take a load off the fans.
 
  • #27
fans... energy sources... it's all dead weight...

large moving parts require reaction-forces that would pretty much offset ur device... ie: putting a fan on your tiny robot would make the robot itself spin. lol~
 
  • #28
perhaps you can try to reduce your 30 lbs ...?
 
  • #29
30 pounds was a wild estimate. It will probably weigh much less than that in reality. I have actually researched using a sticky material and found this. If I could get my hands on this then I might be able to completely remove the use of any moving parts except for the wheels.
 
  • #30
We had a thread about that stuff around here a while ago. (I think that its title was 'improving on nature'.) I'd love to get my mitts on some.
 

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