Determine the speed of the rock as it leaves the spring.

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Homework Help Overview

The problem involves a spring that is compressed and then releases a rock across a frictionless surface. The objective is to determine the speed of the rock as it leaves the spring, utilizing concepts from mechanics and energy transfer.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Assumption checking, Conceptual clarification

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the application of work-energy principles, questioning the interpretation of average force and its implications on the calculations. Some suggest using the work done on the rock to find its speed, while others raise concerns about the definitions of average force and its context in the problem.

Discussion Status

The discussion is active, with participants exploring different interpretations of the average force and its impact on the solution. Some guidance has been offered regarding the relationship between work and kinetic energy, but there is no explicit consensus on the correct approach to take.

Contextual Notes

There are ongoing debates about the assumptions made regarding the average force and whether it should be considered over distance or time. Participants express concern about the implications of these assumptions on the understanding of the problem.

HumanPerson
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Here is the question:
A spring is compressed 20cm. When it is released, it exerts an average force of 57.2 N on a 7.3 kg rock, shooting it across a frictionless floor. Determine the speed of the rock as it leaves the spring.


Homework Equations


W=change in energy
Work energy theorem
W=Fd

The Attempt at a Solution


W=Fd
=(0.20cm)(57.2N)
=11.44J

W= change in EP elastic
=1/2kx^2
Rearrange formula to solve for k (spring constant)
=10.69579357 N/m
 
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I think you're going the wrong direction with this. You have the force applied and the mass affected, so you can solve for the average acceleration of the rock (F=ma, a=7.85616438 m/s2). With the acceleration and Δx (20 cm or .2 m), you can apply the formula vf2 = vo2 + 2(a)(Δx). Since vo is 0, 2 times a times Δx = your final velocity squared.
 
HumanPerson said:
A spring is compressed 20cm. When it is released, it exerts an average force of 57.2 N
This is awkward.
Unless stated otherwise (e.g. as "average force with respect to distance") average force means the average over time. ##F_{avg} = \frac{\int F.dt}{\int dt} = \frac {\Delta p}{\Delta t}##, where p is momentum. On that basis, you need to use the fact that the spring will expand according to simple harmonic motion.
However, it's 10 to 1 that the problem setter has screwed up and expects you to take the average force as being an average over distance: ##F_{distance avg} = \frac{\int F.ds}{\int ds} = \frac {\Delta E}{\Delta s}##, so I'll answer below on that assumption.
HumanPerson said:
W=Fd
=(0.20cm)(57.2N)
=11.44J
So far so good, but you no longer care about the spring. You know how much work has been done on the rock. Deduce its speed from that.
 
These give you the same answer... Work in = Kinetic Energy Final, right?
 
HumanPerson said:
W= change in EP elastic
=1/2kx^2
Rearrange formula to solve for k (spring constant)
=10.69579357 N/m
This formula is not useful to you here, because you are told the spring equation is not that of a normal spring. In a normal spring, F=kx. But in this exercise, you are told to use F=constant, independent of x.
 
mrnike992 said:
These give you the same answer... Work in = Kinetic Energy Final, right?
That should work.
 
mrnike992 said:
These give you the same answer... Work in = Kinetic Energy Final, right?
What give the same answer? Are you saying that both definitions of average force give the same answer?
This is annoying.. I posted a long response to this last night and it has disappeared. Maybe some site monitor mistakenly thought I was providing you with a complete answer to the OP, so I'm not going to try typing it all again.
The upshot was that I demonstrated that using the correct definition of average force gives a different answer The ratio between the answers is sqrt(pi/4).
 
I solved it the way I showed in my original post and with the equation (Work = kinetic energy final) and both most certainly gave me the exact same answer, accurate to like twelve or fifteen sig-figs, however many my calculator allowed.
 
haruspex said:
using the correct definition of average force gives a different answer

Okay, I think I see what you're saying. But this is a high school physics question, I'm sure the question is implying a force over a distance, so it would be an Energy problem, as indicated by the formula for potential energy in a spring. It does say to find the speed as it leaves the spring, and the spring was compressed .2m, so I believe it would be indicating that the average force over the distance from the initial position to the end of the spring, .2m away.
 
  • #10
mrnike992 said:
Okay, I think I see what you're saying. But this is a high school physics question, I'm sure the question is implying a force over a distance, so it would be an Energy problem, as indicated by the formula for potential energy in a spring. It does say to find the speed as it leaves the spring, and the spring was compressed .2m, so I believe it would be indicating that the average force over the distance from the initial position to the end of the spring, .2m away.
I agree that this is almost certainly what the problem setter intends here, but I hate the thought of students being taught that this is a valid interpretation of average force. It leads to the bizarre situation that mass * average acceleration does not always equal average force.
 

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