Difference between de Broglie waves and the normal waves which transfer energy?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the differences between de Broglie waves and classical waves that transfer energy. Participants explore the nature of waves in both classical and quantum contexts, questioning the definitions and characteristics of these waves, particularly in relation to wave-particle duality in quantum mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the term "wave" is used differently in quantum mechanics compared to classical physics, particularly regarding what oscillates in a de Broglie wave.
  • Others assert that a de Broglie wave is a type of matter wave, sharing characteristics with classical waves, and argue that distinguishing between them may not be necessary.
  • One participant describes waves as periodic changes in specific properties over time, using examples like water ripples and electromagnetic waves to illustrate this concept.
  • There is a discussion about the physical significance of the de Broglie wavelength of massive particles, with questions about whether it represents a measurable length similar to electromagnetic radiation.
  • Some participants mention that energy can be conceptualized as a series of interconnected elements, suggesting that the distinction between waves and particles may be less relevant in certain models.
  • References to classical experiments, such as diffraction and the double-slit experiment, are made to support claims about measuring de Broglie wavelengths.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying views on the definitions and implications of waves in classical versus quantum physics. There is no consensus on the nature of oscillations in de Broglie waves or the significance of their wavelength, indicating ongoing debate and exploration of these concepts.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express uncertainty about their understanding of quantum mechanics and its mathematical requirements, which may limit the depth of discussion. There are also references to educational contexts that suggest quantum mechanics may not be covered in certain curricula.

mishrashubham
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Alright, as this wikipedia article states that, "A wave is a disturbance that travels through space and time, usually accompanied by the transfer of energy. Waves travel and the wave motion transfers energy from one point to another, often with no permanent displacement of the particles of the medium—that is, with little or no associated mass transport." So basically a wave transfers energy.

So what is the difference between these waves and de Broglie waves. Is "wave" used in a different sense in Quantum mechanics? When we say an electron acts as a wave (wave-particle duality), what exactly is oscillating in the electron?

Is there a stricter definition of "wave" in physics? And does it differ between classical and quantum physics?

Thank You
 
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(I don't know much about quantum mechanics, so my answers may not be correct)

Did you read the article completely?
Which type of wave are you referring to?
De-broglie wave is a matter wave and comprises of all the characters that a wave has. Its a type of wave. So you can't distinguish between a wave and a de-broglie wave.
 
Pranav-Arora said:
(I don't know much about quantum mechanics, so my answers may not be correct)

Did you read the article completely?
Which type of wave are you referring to?
De-broglie wave is a matter wave and comprises of all the characters that a wave has. Its a type of wave. So you can't distinguish between a wave and a de-broglie wave.

The way I understand it, a wave is characterised by the periodic change of some specific property of a point in space over time. For example, an ripple on the surface of water can be called a wave because the distance between a specific point in space within the volume of the water body and any given water molecule is changing periodically, varying between a maximum and a minimum value. Similarly, an electromagnetic wave is a wave because at any point in space through which the ray passes, the intensity of the electric and magnetic field vectors periodically change or oscillate.

So my question is, if we consider a particle a wave, what is it in that particle, that oscillates or changes periodically with time? In addition, does wave mean something else or is it different from what I have in mind in the above paragraph, in Quantum Physics?
 
Pranav-Arora said:
I ain't sure that this would help you:-:smile:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/uncer.html#c5

I have seen that page (hyperphysics is often the first place to visit for such things). The question asked is pretty much the one I asked as well, however I didn't get a satisfactory answer. Thanks for the help anyways.

Pranav-Arora said:
(btw, do you know how to solve Schrödinger equation? and i don't think quantum mechanics is in our 11th standard books? (i am not sure) )

Nah, quantum mechanics is beyond the scope of our syllabus. It requires understanding of certain mathematics which unfortunately I am not well versed with.
 
*bump*
 
mishrashubham said:
Alright, as this wikipedia article states that, "A wave is a disturbance that travels through space and time, usually accompanied by the transfer of energy. Waves travel and the wave motion transfers energy from one point to another, often with no permanent displacement of the particles of the medium—that is, with little or no associated mass transport." So basically a wave transfers energy.

So what is the difference between these waves and de Broglie waves. Is "wave" used in a different sense in Quantum mechanics? When we say an electron acts as a wave (wave-particle duality), what exactly is oscillating in the electron?

Is there a stricter definition of "wave" in physics? And does it differ between classical and quantum physics?

Thank You

A de Broglie wave is associated with something we usually think of as a moving particle that has mass - an electron or a neutron, for example. We have no problem thinking of a moving particle as something having energy and momentum, and therefore able to transfer energy and momentum. A photon is usually thought of as a wave, but despite having zero mass it it can also be thought of as a moving particle, having energy and momentum and therefore able to transfer energy and momentum. So, in both cases, you can think of energy as being transferred by a wave.
 
JeffKoch said:
A de Broglie wave is associated with something we usually think of as a moving particle that has mass - an electron or a neutron, for example. We have no problem thinking of a moving particle as something having energy and momentum, and therefore able to transfer energy and momentum. A photon is usually thought of as a wave, but despite having zero mass it it can also be thought of as a moving particle, having energy and momentum and therefore able to transfer energy and momentum. So, in both cases, you can think of energy as being transferred by a wave.

Thanks for the reply.
So what physical significance does the de Broglie wavelength of a massive particle have? Is it actually length that we are measuring (just like in EM radiation) or is it something else?
 
mishrashubham said:
Thanks for the reply.
So what physical significance does the de Broglie wavelength of a massive particle have? Is it actually length that we are measuring (just like in EM radiation) or is it something else?

Yes, it's a wavelength - you can measure it with a classical slit experiment, or by diffraction off a crystal. The "waving" is the wavefunction solution to Schroedinger's equation for a free particle, which you can use to calculate expectation values in the usual way.
 
  • #10
The best way to consider this is to think of energy as a series of balls and sticks that are all connected, that way the wave or particle become irrelevant or trivial to the model.

At no point in space is energy 0 and the wave is infinite essentially.

de Broglie wave is associated with something we usually think of as a moving particle that has mass - an electron or a neutron, for example. We have no problem thinking of a moving particle as something having energy and momentum, and therefore able to transfer energy and momentum. A photon is usually thought of as a wave, but despite having zero mass it it can also be thought of as a moving particle, having energy and momentum and therefore able to transfer energy and momentum. So, in both cases, you can think of energy as being transferred by a wave.

http://www.upscale.utoronto.ca/PVB/Harrison/DoubleSlit/DoubleSlit.html

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