Differences between teaching at 2-year and 4-year schools

[vela]

I'm looking for a teaching job (physics and/or math) at the college or university level, and I was wondering of the pros and cons between teaching at a 2-year school vs. a 4-year school. I'd appreciate any insights people have to offer based on their experiences.

 

[eri]

It's a bit easier to get a job teaching at a community college, but since they expect you to teach about 5 classes a semester, you really won't have time to do research - which means you really don't have a shot at going to a 4-year college or university later. Go to a community college, and that's where you'll be staying if you're in academia at all. And some people love it. If you want to teach, that's a great place to do it. I have several relatives teaching at community colleges, and they love it there. But I'm aiming for a 4-year college or university myself, because I still like doing some research and working with students.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Also, remember that the variety of classes is much less. You won't be teaching upper division classes (because there aren't any). You'll be teaching intro physics, usually at several levels (calculus, algebra and poets)

 

[lisab]

I'm not sure if this is widespread, but I hear very few 2-year schools are hiring full-time faculty in my state (Washington). More and more, they hire instructors on contract to teach a class or two. No benefits, btw. So just getting in the door could be a problem.

I don't know if 4-year schools are doing this.

 

[vela]

Thanks for the comments! It's helpful.

It's a bit easier to get a job teaching at a community college, but since they expect you to teach about 5 classes a semester, you really won't have time to do research - which means you really don't have a shot at going to a 4-year college or university later. Go to a community college, and that's where you'll be staying if you're in academia at all. And some people love it. If you want to teach, that's a great place to do it. I have several relatives teaching at community colleges, and they love it there. But I'm aiming for a 4-year college or university myself, because I still like doing some research and working with students.

I assume you're referring to regular research. I never really cared for research, though I think I'd be interested in doing research in physics education.

At a community college, is it typical that the instructor also teaches the lab sections? I'd assume they do whereas at most 4-year schools, there are teaching assistants for that.

Also, remember that the variety of classes is much less. You won't be teaching upper division classes (because there aren't any). You'll be teaching intro physics, usually at several levels (calculus, algebra and poets)

Yeah, this is the main drawback of a junior college to me.

I'm not sure if this is widespread, but I hear very few 2-year schools are hiring full-time faculty in my state (Washington). More and more, they hire instructors on contract to teach a class or two. No benefits, btw. So just getting in the door could be a problem.

I don't know if 4-year schools are doing this.

I wouldn't be surprised what with all the budget problems all the states seem to be having.

Any comments about the quality of the students? Way back when I took calculus at a junior college, the class with room for 40 would usually start with 60 or so students. After a test or two, it would be down to 40, and by the end of the semester, there was perhaps 20 students left. (Of course this was when you could take courses for free, so maybe it's changed since then.) I don't think I ever saw that kind of drop rate at the 4-year schools I attended. As an instructor, I don't know how I'd feel if the majority of students didn't seem that serious about doing the work.

 

[JhonMoney]

i think it doesn't matter that school is of 2 years degrees or 4 years degrees. Teaching is a job and take it as a job.

 

[twofish-quant]

i think it doesn't matter that school is of 2 years degrees or 4 years degrees. Teaching is a job and take it as a job.

For adjunct positions in community colleges, it's better if you don't take it as a job, but instead treat it as paid charity work. The salaries for adjuncts are extremely low, and in order to make a living through adjuncting, you have to teach a *lot* so much so that burnout becomes an issue.

On the other hand, if you have a primary job that keeps you from starving, working as an adjunct is a really good way of early extra money on the side while doing something socially productive.

The difference is also less between 2 year and 4 year degree than the nature of the student. One thing that I found quickly was that most of my students did not care about quantum physics. They just wanted to pass the class, so I set up my class to teach "useful math tricks."

 

[ParticleGrl]

At a community college, is it typical that the instructor also teaches the lab sections? I'd assume they do whereas at most 4-year schools, there are teaching assistants for that.

Have you done any postdocs? If you haven't, you're going to have a hard time landing a position at a research university, which means 4 year college = liberal arts college, so no teaching assistant. In my experience, to even get an interview at a liberal arts college, you need to demonstrate an ability to teach lab courses. Some community colleges don't have equipment for lab sections, so there aren't any to teach.

Also, in my experience in CA, the teaching positions at both lower-tier liberal arts and community colleges are at the adjunct level. This is a temporary contract, about $2000/$3000 per 4 credit class, no benefits.

 

[twofish-quant]

At a community college, is it typical that the instructor also teaches the lab sections? I'd assume they do whereas at most 4-year schools, there are teaching assistants for that.

Yes. You'll also end up spending most of your time grading papers.

I wouldn't be surprised what with all the budget problems all the states seem to be having.

Full time positions are rare. Adjuncts are still very easy to get.

I don't think I ever saw that kind of drop rate at the 4-year schools I attended.

I have. Different type of schools.

As an instructor, I don't know how I'd feel if the majority of students didn't seem that serious about doing the work.

It varies a lot. Something that you will find in community colleges is a rather large number of 30-year olds and in some cases people that are ex-military, and those are very serious people. Also in some places you do get decent numbers of people that are using community college as a cheap way of getting lower division requirements, and those students are good.

Students that aren't serious, you can pretty much ignore. The type of student that you will find hard to deal with in both 2 year and 4 year schools is someone that is sincere and hard-working, but just is not prepared for the class.

 

[twofish-quant]

Also, in my experience in CA, the teaching positions at both lower-tier liberal arts and community colleges are at the adjunct level. This is a temporary contract, about $2000/$3000 per 4 credit class, no benefits.

Also University of Phoenix looks for lots of adjuncts to teach intro physics and algebra (they don't do calculus). They paid $1200 for a one month class, and the set things up to make it easy for non-traditional teachers as well as non-traditional learners.

The good parts:

1) The students have been extremely motivated and willing to learn
2) The online infrastructure is quite good
3) For the most part you get to decide what the curriculum is

The bad parts:

1) they require that this be your second job. They will not hire you without two years of experience and without a full time job doing something else.
2) there is no sense of community among faculty.
3) you are a burger flipper. What happens is that they mysteriously tell you that there is a class to teach, you teach it, you get paid. The process that you get classes is totally mysterious, and in the time that I was there, I don't think that I connected with any other faculty. My thinking is that they intentionally keep faculty isolated out of fear that if adjunct faculty start talking to teach other, you'll very quickly have labor unions form.

 

[vela]

1) they require that this be your second job. They will not hire you without two years of experience and without a full time job doing something else.

Just curious, do you know why they want you to have a full-time job?

 

[twofish-quant]

Just curious, do you know why they want you to have a full-time job?

To be extremely cynical about this, it's so that UoP can pay you less and then advertise truthfully that most of their classes are taught by "working professionals." UoP makes it pretty clear their adjunct jobs are not intended to give you a "living wage", and if you don't have a job from some other source, they don't want to be responsible for keeping you from starving.

It's cynical, but on the other hand at least UoP is honest that you can't make a living from the money they pay you, which isn't the case with a lot of community colleges. One reason I think that a lot of students quit community college is that the idea that education is a good thing that will make you more money looks a lot less convincing if the instructor is barely scraping by.

University of Phoenix is a fascinating institution, and it's an incredible cash cow (although not for instructors). You have ten students, each paying $1000 for a course so you have $10,000 coming in . $1500 of that goes to the instructor + overhead, $1500 goes to support and infrastructure. $3000 of that goes to marketing, and the $4000 left goes to the shareholders. As a for-profit institution, the cash that is raises is pretty incredible.