Differentiation on R^n ....need/ use of norms ....

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the use of norms in the context of differentiation on R^n, specifically in relation to Theorem 9.1.10 from Hugo D. Junghenn's "A Course in Real Analysis." Participants are examining the implications of norm signs in mathematical expressions related to vector-valued functions and limits.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Peter questions the absence of norm signs in certain expressions within the proof of Theorem 9.1.10 and seeks clarification on their necessity.
  • Some participants explain that the lack of norm signs in the numerator of the expression for $\eta(h)$ indicates it is a vector in $\Bbb{R}^m$, while the norm in the denominator is essential for the scalar division.
  • It is noted that the limit of a vector going to zero is equivalent to its norm going to zero, which some participants find helpful.
  • Peter expresses confusion about the necessity of norm signs in the numerator of the limit expression, suggesting that their presence may be superfluous.
  • Another participant agrees with Peter, stating that the inclusion of norm signs in the numerator does not affect the outcome.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally express uncertainty regarding the necessity of norm signs in certain contexts, with some agreeing that they may not be needed while others provide reasoning for their inclusion. The discussion remains unresolved on this point.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the nuances of mathematical notation and its implications in proofs, particularly in the context of vector calculus and limits. There are unresolved questions about the author's intent in including norm signs in specific expressions.

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I am reading Hugo D. Junghenn's book: "A Course in Real Analysis" ...

I am currently focused on Chapter 9: "Differentiation on [FONT=MathJax_AMS]R[FONT=MathJax_Math]n"

I need some help with an aspect of Theorem 9.1.10 ...

Theorem 9.1.10 reads as follows:
View attachment 7883The proof of Theorem 9.1.10 relies on the definition of the derivative of a vector-valued function of several variables ... that is, Definition 9.1.6 ... so I am providing the same ... as follows:
View attachment 7884
In Junghenn's proof of Theorem 9.1.10 above, we read the following:

" ... ... and

$$\eta (h) = \frac{ f(a + h ) - f(a) - df_a (h) }{ \| h \| }$$ if $$h \neq 0$$

... ... "Now there are no norm signs around this expression (with the exception of around $$h$$ in the denominator ...) ... and indeed no norm signs around the expression $$\lim_{ h \rightarrow 0 } \eta(h) = 0$$ ... nor indeed are there any norm signs in the limit shown in Definition 9.1.6 above (with the exception of around $$h$$ in the denominator ...) ...

... BUT ...

... ... this lack of norm signs seems in contrast to the last few lines of the proof of Theorem 9.1.10 as follows ... where we read ...

" ... ... Conversely if (9.6) holds for some $$\eta$$ and $$T$$, then $$\lim_{ h \rightarrow 0 } \frac{ \| f( a + h ) - f(a) - Th \| }{ \| h \| } = \lim_{ h \rightarrow 0 } \| \eta(h) \| = 0
$$

... ... "Here, in contrast to the case above, there are norm signs around the numerator and indeed around $$\eta(h)$$ ... ...
Can someone please explain why norm signs are used in the numerator and around $$\eta(h)$$ in one case ... yet not the other ...
Help will be appreciated ...

Peter
 
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Peter said:
In Junghenn's proof of Theorem 9.1.10 above, we read the following:

" ... ... and

$$\eta (h) = \frac{ f(a + h ) - f(a) - df_a (h) }{ \| h \| }$$ if $$h \neq 0$$

... ... "Now there are no norm signs around this expression (with the exception of around $$h$$ in the denominator ...) ... and indeed no norm signs around the expression $$\lim_{ h \rightarrow 0 } \eta(h) = 0$$ ... nor indeed are there any norm signs in the limit shown in Definition 9.1.6 above (with the exception of around $$h$$ in the denominator ...) ...

... BUT ...

... ... this lack of norm signs seems in contrast to the last few lines of the proof of Theorem 9.1.10 as follows ... where we read ...

" ... ... Conversely if (9.6) holds for some $$\eta$$ and $$T$$, then $$\lim_{ h \rightarrow 0 } \frac{ \| f( a + h ) - f(a) - Th \| }{ \| h \| } = \lim_{ h \rightarrow 0 } \| \eta(h) \| = 0
$$

... ... "Here, in contrast to the case above, there are norm signs around the numerator and indeed around $$\eta(h)$$ ... ...
Can someone please explain why norm signs are used in the numerator and around $$\eta(h)$$ in one case ... yet not the other ...
Help will be appreciated ...

Peter
$$f(a + h ) - f(a) - df_a (h)$$ is a vector in $\Bbb{R}^m$, and $h$ is a vector in $\Bbb{R}^n$. A vector can be multiplied (or divided) by a scalar, but not by another vector. So in the quotient $$\eta(h) = \frac{ f( a + h ) - f(a) - Th }{ \| h \| }$$ it is essential to have norm signs in the denominator. There are no norm signs in the numerator, and so $\eta(h)$ is a vector in $\Bbb{R}^m$.

When it comes to taking the limit as $h\to0$, it is always the case that a vector goes to zero if and only if its norm goes to zero. Therefore the conditions $\eta(h) \to0$ and $\|\eta(h)\| \to0$ are equivalent.

Finally, it follows from one of the axioms for a norm that $$\|\eta(h)\| = \left\|\frac{ f( a + h ) - f(a) - Th }{ \| h \| } \right\| = \frac{ \| f( a + h ) - f(a) - Th \| }{ \| h \| }.$$
 
Opalg said:
$$f(a + h ) - f(a) - df_a (h)$$ is a vector in $\Bbb{R}^m$, and $h$ is a vector in $\Bbb{R}^n$. A vector can be multiplied (or divided) by a scalar, but not by another vector. So in the quotient $$\eta(h) = \frac{ f( a + h ) - f(a) - Th }{ \| h \| }$$ it is essential to have norm signs in the denominator. There are no norm signs in the numerator, and so $\eta(h)$ is a vector in $\Bbb{R}^m$.

When it comes to taking the limit as $h\to0$, it is always the case that a vector goes to zero if and only if its norm goes to zero. Therefore the conditions $\eta(h) \to0$ and $\|\eta(h)\| \to0$ are equivalent.

Finally, it follows from one of the axioms for a norm that $$\|\eta(h)\| = \left\|\frac{ f( a + h ) - f(a) - Th }{ \| h \| } \right\| = \frac{ \| f( a + h ) - f(a) - Th \| }{ \| h \| }.$$
Thanks Opalg ... your post was very helpful ...

It was particularly helpful to me to be reminded that ... ... " ... ... When it comes to taking the limit as $h\to0$, it is always the case that a vector goes to zero if and only if its norm goes to zero. ... ... "

But ... given what you have said, I am still a bit perplexed as to why the author bothered to put norm signs around the numerator of ... ...$$\lim_{ h \rightarrow 0 } \frac{ \| f( a + h ) - f(a) - Th \| }{ \| h \| } = \lim_{ h \rightarrow 0 } \| \eta(h) \| = 0
$$

... given what you said, surely he need not have bothered .... can you comment ...Thank you again for your help ...

Peter
 
Peter said:
I am still a bit perplexed as to why the author bothered to put norm signs around the numerator of

$$\lim_{ h \rightarrow 0 } \frac{ \| f( a + h ) - f(a) - Th \| }{ \| h \| } = \lim_{ h \rightarrow 0 } \| \eta(h) \| = 0 $$

... given what you said, surely he need not have bothered .
I can't see any need for the norm signs. It makes no difference whether they are there or not.
 
Opalg said:
I can't see any need for the norm signs. It makes no difference whether they are there or not.
Thanks Opalg ...

I understand ... but that is a very important point to me ...

THanks again for clarifying the issue ...

Peter
 

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