Physics Difficult looking for medical physics jobs

[qball]

To do a good job as a clinical physicist in a hospital is not necessary to be phd at all. Actually, I think it is not necessary to be a physicist, because what we do is not Physics. Perhaps it was many years ago, but not now. Of course I am referring only to the clinical medical physicist working in hospitals (the vast majority of us), not to the physicist doing research at university or developing technology in the industry. Behind new developments there are some people that we could consider as medical physicist, although most of them are experts in computing, monte carlo methods, specific engineering fields...etc, not in "medical physics" in general.

I have made a similar argument previously, in another thread. I completely agree with this statement. Many fields of medical physics involve research but it is nothing like physics research. Nothing.

I wonder if this is the argument medphys is trying to make. To me he sounds like someone jaded that medical physics as a career didn't turn out to be as intellectually fulfilling as he expected it to be. This is largely the fault of graduate programs which still market medical physics at physics graduates and promise them a field where they can apply their undergraduate knowledge. I mean, hell, I haven't seen the Schrodinger equation, Maxwell's equations, or even so much as geometrical vector in over 2 years -- but I have done a lot of memorizing of dosimetric ratios and calculational algorithms, neither of which I particularly care to learn.

Now that medphys has elaborated on his argument (i.e. he has moved beyond pure insults) I tend to agree with his general assertion. It seems that the clinical physicists I have met have all relied on a single calculational technique -- blame every caclulational error on scatter.

I can definitely see how one can be disappointed with clinical physics, especially if one has a natural inclination toward understanding nature and solving problems. Clinical medical physics (or even med. phys. in general) provides no great depth of understanding into the natural processes that govern radiation oncology. For instance, medical "physicists" are still treating the body as if it were a pure water phantom. Really? Come on. 100 years of physics research and the best you can come up with is "pretend the body is made of water." Yeah, it's close enough for most calculations, but is it really the best we can do?

To further make my point some of the most successful students I have seen in medical physics programs have had engineering backgrounds and not physics. What makes engineers so successful? Could it be that they are trained to accept only a superficial understanding of concepts and parrot them back when asked to do so?

Now, before Choppy starts replying about all the great partial differential equations he has to solve numerically and in his head on a daily basis I have to say I find it hard to believe that most problems that arise in the clinic actually require a deep theoretical knowledge to solve them. To quote a previous example, what happens when MU calculations aren't coming out correctly? Well, it's possible that you have discovered some new physical process by which electrons interact in your solid water phantom, but most likely the ion chamber needs to be recalibrated. That, or you miscalculated.

Let's be honest about what's going on here. All the board exams and degree requirements are not strictly necessary to be a competent "medical physicist." That's why the AAPM is considering a PDMP (professional doctorate) program. So one cannot argue that a research degree and all the problems solving abilities it supposedly confers is strictly necessary to be a good medical physicist if the AAPM is seriously considering a professional program. A professional program would remove any vestige of a medical physics being a supposedly academic degree and put medical physics on the same playing field as, say, a 2-year technical degree in automotive maintenance.

/soapbox

 

[qball]

*raises eyebrow*

Why the hell did you go into the field if you hate it so damn much?

First of all: attitude does count. Who'd want to hire a whiny person complain about doing their job all day, especially when they feel that their job isn't important? Nothing will get accomplished.

People want to hire someone who can feel good about what they are doing, so they do their best.

Second: Perhaps you should look for a different job. One that's more suited for your mighty amounts of knowledge, since you find them very useful. Those darn high school kids could do your job any day, allegedly, so let them.

If you want to actually get a job, take your foot out of your mouth, and get a different attitude. I hope this is just your attitude towards med phys, and not things in general. If this is the way you look at everything- good luck finding a job. *salutes*

He probably went into the field for the same reason many of go into the field. We want jobs, we want to make a decent salary, and we don't want to be computer programmers.

 

[medphys]

LOL, Choppy said new physical process may be discovered from MU calc? That is not possible. All physics has been found long time ago (simply put, three main processes and Raleigh scattering which hardly deposits any dose) 99.9999% YOUR calc is wrong, 0.0001% TPS coding error. you chance to find new physics through routine MU calc is 0. Millions of dollars are invested to experiments to find new physics, how laughable you think simple MU calc can lead to discovering new physics.

present med phys is not phys at all, Ask how many med phys can solve 1D harmonic oscilator uring schrodinger equ? none. How many can derive klein-nishina formula (compton scattering) none. yet all these are like primary school stuff for real physcs. The four core courses in physics, classical mechanics, electrodynamic, quantum mechanics and statistical mechanics, how many med phys know it? med phys don't need it at all in clinical environment, even not in research. Look at papers in medical physics and phys med biol, all those research is just simple geometry, some mathematics some computer coding, but no physics. It is ironic.

For medical physics, how many med phys can correctly state assumptions in Bragg-Gray theory and Spencer-Attix theory and derive them? maybe a few but not many. Now we are using TG51 we don't even see them. Years ago, we used TG21, the formula was a little more complivcated, but you don't need to understand the theory, you just apply it.

med phys is about memory and practical experience, not about true reasoning and exploring. More like an engineer. You just apply those formulas, don't need to understand them in a deeper way.

I just mean med phys is not an appropriate name the true reflecting the nature of med phys.

Also because of low-standard and easiness, many can learn it quick which makes job market so bad.

 

[qball]

LOL, Choppy said new physical process may be discovered from MU calc? That is not possible. All physics has been found long time ago (simply put, three main processes and Raleigh scattering which hardly deposits any dose) 99.9999% YOUR calc is wrong, 0.0001% TPS coding error. you chance to find new physics through routine MU calc is 0. Millions of dollars are invested to experiments to find new physics, how laughable you think simple MU calc can lead to discovering new physics.

present med phys is not phys at all, Ask how many med phys can solve 1D harmonic oscilator uring schrodinger equ? none. How many can derive klein-nishina formula (compton scattering) none. yet all these are like primary school stuff for real physcs.

For medical physics, how many med phys can correctly state assumptions in Bragg-Gray theory and Spencer-Attix theory and derive them? maybe a few but not many. Now we are using TG51 we don't even see it. Before we used TG21, the formula is a little more complivcated, but you don't need to understand the theory, you just apply it.

med phys is about memory and practical experience, not about reasoning and exploring. More like an engineer. You just apply those formulas, don't need to understand them in a deeper way.

Please make it clear who you are talking to. I was defending your arguments.

 

[medphys]

Yes, went into the field because I heard the rumor that jobs will be waiting for you. another reason is that those so called med phys gave me false impression in med phys

He probably went into the field for the same reason many of go into the field. We want jobs, we want to make a decent salary, and we don't want to be computer programmers.

 

[medphys]

I am not a loose canon. I do not intend to write this to you. I know you have good arguments and agree with me. I am talking to Choppy and other people who still don't see the fact.

Please make it clear who you are talking to. I was defending your arguments.

 

[NeoDevin]

LOL, Choppy said new physical process may be discovered from MU calc? That is not possible.

I'm trying to find where he claimed that, and having trouble. Don't suppose you could quote the relevant section?

 

[medphys]

Another thing I don't see med phys as phys because they tend to use buzz fancy words to artificially elevate the importance which is usually contempted by real expert. Like why we call 4DCT? It is just a combintation of a series of 3DCT nothing special. When real physicists say 4D it means something. It means time and space are intrinsically related and cannot be separated, demonstrated by Lorentz tranformation (Poincare group). However, "4DCT" is just a set of 3DCT taken at different counch positions, there is not time space physical correlation. It does not qualify the name 4D. I bet the physicitst who propsed the 4D name have never truly understood the special theory of relativity. You think those med phys are real phys? absolutely not! They don't even understand the 3rd year physics course: special theory of relativity. However, if they claim they are technicians, they may get away with it becasue we knoe technicians are not supposed to understand things, they just do things by rote and if problems occur, use memory and experience.

 

[Choppy]

Wow - I go away for a few days and all of a sudden people are attributing all sorts of stuff to me.

I'm fairly certiain I never claimed new physical processes would be discovered during a monitor unit calculation.

The argument here is largely a philosophical one. Qball and I disagree on what constitutes physics as applied in a profession. Medical physics is applied physics. I'm not sure that I've ever claimed anything to the contrary. You're not going to discover a new particle, or a new fundamental interaction by studying it.

But then again - who thought that it did? I mean, do you think there are really undergrads out there who think that medical physics is the key to deriving a TOE?

If anyone out there wants to get an idea of what is done in medical physics there are two journals to read: (1) Medical Physics, and (2) Physics in Medicine and Biology. There are several others of course, but those are the big ones.

And yes, there are clinical physicists out there who don't publish, but that does not apply to the entire field. They certainly aren't in the majority in the clinics I've worked at.

A medical physicist is first and foremost a physicist.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I bet the physicitst who propsed the 4D name have never truly understood the special theory of relativity.

You are letting your rancor get the best of you, and it's causing you to say ridiculous things.

If there was every any value to this thread, it's long since passed.