Distance between energy states?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of the term |rba|² in the context of quantum mechanics, specifically relating to Einstein Coefficients and the interaction of matter with radiation. Participants explore the significance of this term, its relation to dipole moments, and the implications of the dipole approximation in quantum transitions.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the significance of the term |rba|², noting that energy levels do not have definite locations.
  • Another participant explains that |rba|² represents the matrix element for the dipole operator, which is analogous to a classical dipole moment formed by charge displacement.
  • There is a discussion about the dipole approximation and its relation to the vector nature of the potential in electromagnetic scattering.
  • Some participants clarify that the dipole analogy is used to denote the level of approximation rather than indicating the presence of an actual dipole moment.
  • It is suggested that the matrix element |rab|² can be interpreted as a probability related to measuring the system's state after applying the dipole operator.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying interpretations of the term |rba|² and its implications, indicating that multiple competing views remain. The discussion does not reach a consensus on the significance of the term or its physical interpretation.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the understanding of the term |rba|² depends on the dipole approximation and the relationship between initial and final states in quantum transitions. There are unresolved aspects regarding the exact nature of the dipole analogy and its implications for physical systems.

Shadrach Hepner
Messages
11
Reaction score
1
I'm doing some personal research on how matter interacts with radiation. Specifically, I am looking through the treatment of Bransden and Joachain. I've taken two semesters of quantum in the past (a while ago), but now I'm coming across something that I've either never seen or never stopped to question. In discussing Einstein Coefficients, I keep seeing this |rba|2 term, where b and a both refer to energy states, with Eb > Ea. Now, I'm having some trouble visualizing any significance to this term. It is defined in the usual way, as the sum of |xi|2, but I just have no idea what this means, as energy levels don't ever really have definite locations, as far as I understand. Could anyone help shed some intuition on what this "distance" means?

Also, sorry in advance if this belongs in the homework/coursework forum, I wasn't quite sure.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Do you have a page number as there are nearly 700!
 
That term is the matrix element for the dipole operator, which is proportional to the coordinate vector ##\mathbf{r}##. It is not exactly a physical distance, but it is analogous to the classical idea that a dipole moment can be formed if a charge is displaced with respect to a neutral configuration according to ##\mathbf{P} = \sum_i q_i (\mathbf{r}_i - \mathbf{r}_e)##.

You can find a derivation of that matrix element at the chapter http://quantummechanics.ucsd.edu/ph130a/130_notes/node417.html. Briefly, the interaction of the atom with an photon is determined in terms of the electromagnetic field of the photon through an interaction Hamiltonian that is proportional to ## \mathbf{A} \cdot \mathbf{p}## where ##\mathbf{A}## is the EM vector potential and ##\mathbf{p}## is the momentum operator. For a photon of specific wavevector ##\mathbf{k}##, the vector potential can be expanded as a plane wave ## a e^{i\mathbf{k}\cdot \mathbf{r}}##, but the dipole approximation assumes that ##\mathbf{k}\cdot \mathbf{r} \ll 1## so that we can treat ## e^{i\mathbf{k}\cdot \mathbf{r} }\sim 1##. Then the interaction operator is essentially the momentum operator, but we can write
$$ -\frac{i}{m} \mathbf{p} = [H_0, \mathbf{r}],$$
where ##H_0## is the unperturbed Hamiltonian (see the notes for a bit more justification of this). In an expectation value then
$$ \langle b| \mathbf{p} |a\rangle \sim \langle b| [H_0, \mathbf{r}]|a\rangle = \langle b| (E_b - E_a) \mathbf{r}|a\rangle ,$$
so the nontrivial data are the matrix elements ## \mathbf{r}_{ab} = \langle b| \mathbf{r}|a\rangle##.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Shadrach Hepner
Jilang, yes, this stuff starts on page 166.

Fzero, thank you for the extensive response! Is there a tie to the existence of an actual dipole anywhere, or is the dipole analogy just because of the dot product between the bra and ket vectors, forming a similar shape?
 
Shadrach Hepner said:
Jilang, yes, this stuff starts on page 166.

Fzero, thank you for the extensive response! Is there a tie to the existence of an actual dipole anywhere, or is the dipole analogy just because of the dot product between the bra and ket vectors, forming a similar shape?

In classical EM scattering, the plane wave ##e^{i \mathbf{k}\cdot \mathbf{r}}## is also expanded into spherical harmonics and this type of expansion is known as a multipole expansion. The lowest order term in the expansion for the vector potential is called the dipole term, so the same terminology is used here in the quantum case. This dipole nature is required because of the vector-nature of the potential.

The initial and final states need not have electric dipole moments of their own. The transition matrix element is really a hybrid object that measures how the initial and final states are related.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Shadrach Hepner and bhobba
Ok, so the reference to a dipole is only mentioned to denote the level of approximation. And the term I originally brought up, |rab|2, is simply the result of applying this dipole-approximation operator to the original state. Is that right?
 
Shadrach Hepner said:
Ok, so the reference to a dipole is only mentioned to denote the level of approximation. And the term I originally brought up, |rab|2, is simply the result of applying this dipole-approximation operator to the original state. Is that right?

Almost, The matrix element ##\langle b|\mathbf{r} |a\rangle## also depends on the final state ##|b\rangle##. The way to think about it is the following. You would recall that the quantity ##|\langle \phi | \psi \rangle|^2## can be thought of as the probability that a measurement finds the system in the state ##|\phi\rangle## given that it was in the state ##|\psi\rangle## at some point before the measurement. Here we can think of applying the dipole operator to the initial state to give some intermediate state ## |\psi \rangle = \mathbf{r} |a\rangle##. Then ##|\langle b| \mathbf{r} | a\rangle|^2= |\langle b| \psi \rangle|^2## is the probability to measure the final state given that intermediate state. Typically the initial and final states of interest are eigenstates of the unperturbed Hamiltonian, while the intermediate state can be expressed as a linear combination of essentially all energy eigenstates with the allowed angular momentum quantum numbers.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Shadrach Hepner
Ah, gotcha, that actually makes perfect sense. Thank you!
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
938
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K