Do not believe this letter on gravitational radiation

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a letter critiquing the quadrupolar formula in the context of gravitational radiation, specifically addressing the claims made by the author regarding energy loss in binary star systems. Participants analyze the implications of the continuity equation in general relativity and the assumptions made by the author.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested, Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express concern over the author's misuse of the continuity equation in the linearized Einstein equations, suggesting it leads to incorrect conclusions about energy loss and motion.
  • Others argue that while the letter is flawed, it is clear in its reasoning, making it a useful example of logical fallacies in physics.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of treating two point particles without internal structure in general relativity, with some noting that this approach is incompatible with the full theory.
  • Participants highlight the confusion surrounding the linearized Einstein equations, noting that they have no solutions unless the stress-energy tensor is zero, which complicates the understanding of gravitational interactions.
  • Some participants clarify the differences between the continuity equations in electromagnetism and general relativity, pointing out the implications for the author's arguments.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the letter contains significant flaws, particularly in its treatment of gravitational acceleration and energy loss. However, there is no consensus on the implications of these flaws or the overall validity of the author's arguments.

Contextual Notes

The discussion reveals limitations in the author's assumptions regarding the continuity equation and the treatment of gravitational interactions, as well as the complexities involved in perturbation theory in general relativity.

cellotim
Messages
64
Reaction score
0
I was looking for references on the quadrupolar formula and found this http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1992Ap&SS.194..159Y". I was so shocked to find that it had actually been published (although it was nearly 20 years ago) that I had to post this warning that there is a fundamental flaw in the paper.

In the paper, the author discusses the quadrupolar formula which has been used to derive the orbital speed-up of a binary star system. This orbital speed-up has been measured with good accuracy for the binary pulsar system PSR 1913 + 16. The author then goes on to try to demonstrate that the energy loss is zero through a gross misuse of the continuity equation for the linearized Einstein equations, [tex]\partial_\mu T^{\mu\nu} = 0[/tex]. In fact, the author assumes that the continuity equation implies that bodies travel in straight lines as the third section of this letter shows.

Anyone familiar with Newtonian mechanics or electromagnetism knows this is false. The continuity equation is underspecified and the field equations give the rest of the motion. For example, in electromagnetism we have [tex]\partial_\mu J^{\mu} = 0[/tex] for a current. In this we have one equation and four unknowns with Maxwell's equations providing the rest of the specification of the current. In the continuity equation for GR, there are four equations and ten unknowns and straight line motion is only one of infinite solutions.

I think it's a good illustration of the kinds of basic mistakes that people can make and that just because something is published in a journal does not mean it can be trusted.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Physics news on Phys.org
I think it's a good letter.

It's wrong, but at least it's clear why it's wrong. As you point out, the author incorrectly calculates that bodies do not accelerate in gravitational fields (!), and then goes on to show (correctly, given the faulty premise) that there is no radiation in this situation. "Wrong but clear" is far more useful than what many people with unorthodox theories write - that's "wrong and inpenetrable"
 
Vanadium 50 said:
I think it's a good letter.

It's wrong, but at least it's clear why it's wrong. As you point out, the author incorrectly calculates that bodies do not accelerate in gravitational fields (!), and then goes on to show (correctly, given the faulty premise) that there is no radiation in this situation. "Wrong but clear" is far more useful than what many people with unorthodox theories write - that's "wrong and inpenetrable"

Yes, I agree. I think it's a good example of a basic mistake and one that's easy to make given the way the geodesic equation is set up. It's a good discussion point for logical fallacies. In this case, it's a classic fallacy of reversed implication, i.e. since constant velocity implies [tex]\partial_\mu T^{\mu\nu} = 0[/tex], the author assumes the converse. It would be less fatal if it weren't the entire purpose of the letter :). Otherwise, the author has a good understanding of how the quadrupolar formula is calculated in the Epstein-Wagoner formalism.
 
I think that the author is claiming to consider two point particles (without "internal structure"). This makes no sense in full GR, but it is perfectly compatible with [itex]\partial_\mu T^{\mu\nu}=0[/itex]. Plugging in the relevant form for the stress-energy tensor, it is easily shown that such particles must move on straight lines.

I think that he is implicitly bringing up a well-known source of confusion in GR: If treated as "exact," the linearized Einstein equations have no solutions unless [itex]\partial_\mu T^{\mu\nu}=0[/itex]. But this is only true if the matter does not interact gravitationally. This is not a "theory of gravity" in any reasonable sense. There are ways out of this, but they require considerable care in the choice of approximations. Perturbation theory is tricky in GR, and many issues remain unclear even today.
 
Stingray said:
I think that the author is claiming to consider two point particles (without "internal structure"). This makes no sense in full GR, but it is perfectly compatible with [itex]\partial_\mu T^{\mu\nu}=0[/itex]. Plugging in the relevant form for the stress-energy tensor, it is easily shown that such particles must move on straight lines.

I think that he is implicitly bringing up a well-known source of confusion in GR: If treated as "exact," the linearized Einstein equations have no solutions unless [itex]\partial_\mu T^{\mu\nu}=0[/itex]. But this is only true if the matter does not interact gravitationally. This is not a "theory of gravity" in any reasonable sense. There are ways out of this, but they require considerable care in the choice of approximations. Perturbation theory is tricky in GR, and many issues remain unclear even today.

Yes, I see now. There is a difference. The continuity equation for electromagnetism is, [tex]\nabla\cdot\vec{J} + \partial \rho/\partial t = 0[/tex] or [tex]\partial_\mu J^{\mu} = 0[/tex] where [tex]J^{\mu} = (-\rho,\vec{v})[/tex] is underspecified. But the equation [tex]\partial_{\mu} T^{\mu\nu} = 0[/tex] has four equations, not enough to specify the ten components of the tensor but enough to specify the four velocity. Interesting. So, the author is making a different mistake than I thought.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
2K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
1K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 31 ·
2
Replies
31
Views
4K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K