Do the conditions created by the LHC accurartely simulate the big bang?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around whether the conditions created by the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) accurately simulate the conditions of the Big Bang. Participants explore the similarities and differences in energy densities, temperatures, and the fundamental nature of space and time between the two scenarios.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question if the properties of space and time during the Big Bang are fundamentally different from those today, suggesting that this could affect the results of LHC experiments.
  • One participant mentions the equivalence principle, arguing that locally, the properties of time and space are the same, but the properties of matter can vary, highlighting differences in charge density between LHC collisions and the early universe.
  • Another participant speculates that if space was one-dimensional at the moment of the Big Bang, then the particles created in three-dimensional space today may not correspond to those from the Big Bang.
  • A later reply challenges the notion of discussing the "moment of the Big Bang," stating that within general relativity, this is a singular point where the theory breaks down, suggesting that discussions should focus on moments after the event.
  • There is a suggestion that if there were radical changes in the structure of spacetime, these would have occurred earlier than the times simulated by the LHC, emphasizing the need for precision in discussing the timing after the Big Bang.
  • One participant references a proposal suggesting that the early universe may have had vanishing dimensions, which could simplify some complex problems in physics.
  • Another comment notes that at time t=0, the energy levels would be too high for meaningful simulation, implying that relevant comparisons should be made for times greater than zero.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the nature of space and time during the Big Bang and the implications for LHC simulations. The discussion remains unresolved with no consensus reached.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the discussion, including the dependence on definitions of dimensionality and the unresolved nature of the singularity at the moment of the Big Bang.

BernieM
Messages
280
Reaction score
6
The LHC is supposed to create conditions similar to the big bang. Although energy densities, temperatures and other conditions may be similar to those theorized in the big bang and soon thereafter, are the conditions of space and time the same now as then? If time and or space were fundamentally different at the moment of the big bang than today, wouldn't the results in our current 'space/time' conditions yield different results than the big bang if there were fundamental differences?
 
Space news on Phys.org
One way of stating the equivalence principle is that *locally*, the properties of time and space are always exactly the same.

The properties of *matter*, on the other hand, can vary. There are certainly ways in which an LHC collision does not exactly mimic the conditions at a certain time shortly after the Big Bang when, say, the temperature was the same. For example, the net charge density in an LHC collision is positive, but in the early universe it was zero.

-Ben
 
Supposing that some of the current ideas are correct, for example, that at the moment of the big bang space was 1 dimensional, then it might be possible that the particles being created today in 3d space are not what were created in the big bang.
 
BernieM said:
Supposing that some of the current ideas are correct, for example, that at the moment of the big bang space was 1 dimensional, then it might be possible that the particles being created today in 3d space are not what were created in the big bang.

Wait, what? 1-dimensional objects are lines. Assuming you actually meant 0-dimensional, which are points, this is still a ridiculous thing to claim.

The fact is, discussing the "moment of the big bang" is meaningless. Within the context of GR, this is a singular point so the theory breaks down. Assuming some quantum gravity corrections, the singularity is likely removed so there is no "moment of big bang". Either way, you can only discuss things about the moments after the event.
 
BernieM said:
Supposing that some of the current ideas are correct, for example, that at the moment of the big bang space was 1 dimensional, then it might be possible that the particles being created today in 3d space are not what were created in the big bang.

If there were radical changes in the structure of spacetime, that would have been at earlier times than the times simulated by the LHC. As Nabeshin has pointed out, it's necessary to be more precise about the time after the Big Bang that you're talking about.
 
"Last year, Landsberg and colleagues suggested a simpler way to let the standard model live on at high energies: Have a universe with vanishing dimensions. If the hot infant universe had only one spatial dimension and acquired more as it expanded and cooled, some of the most intractable problems in physics disappear."

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/03/vanishing-dimensions/#
 
No t=0, too much energy. After t>0 maybe.
 

Similar threads

High School Did the Big Bang follow multiple bangs? How did matter come to collide?
  • · Replies 43 ·
2
Replies
43
Views
5K
High School Big Crunch, Big Bang and information loss
  • · Replies 56 ·
2
Replies
56
Views
8K
High School What if we weren't the only Big Bang
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
Undergrad DDO 68: A Young Galaxy Supporting the Steady State Theory
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
Undergrad Questions on the consequence of an evolving dark energy parameter
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
Undergrad Some questions about Cosmic Inflation
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
5K
Undergrad Basic Big-Bang ?'s For First Thread
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
4K
Graduate Challenging the Big Bang: Addressing Objections to the Expanding Universe Theory
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
9K
Undergrad Is this explanation of "space itself expanding" correct?
  • · Replies 27 ·
Replies
27
Views
4K
Graduate Ending point for initial condition theories
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K