Does David Reich contradict Nicholas Wade?

[sevensages]

Last year I read Nicholas Wade's book Before the Dawn. Before the Dawn is about the history of humanity in prehistoric times.

I am currently reading David Reich's book Who We Are and How we Got Here. Who we Are and How we Got Here is also about the history of humanity in prehistoric times.

In Before the Dawn, Wade wrote the following: "The Richards team's reconstruction of the population history of Europe brought to light an unexpected fact: that most Europeans are descended from the first settlers who arrived during the Upper Paleolithic Era. Only a minority arrived during the Neolithic age."

In Who We Are and How We Got Here, David Reich wrote the following: "The extraordinary fact that emerges from ancient DNA is that just five thousand years ago, the people who are now the primary ancestors of all extant northern Europeans had not yet arrived" (107).

Is it just my imagination, or does the quote by David Reich contradict the quote by Nicholas Wade? If the two quotes don't contradict each other, please reconcile them for me. I don't see how those two quotes don't contradict each other.

If there is a contradiction, I suppose the consensus is probably that David Reich is correct since David Reich had access to ancient DNA that Nicholas Wade did not have access to. Who We Are and How we Got Here was published in 2018. IIRC, Before the Dawn was published circa 2006.

If there is a contradiction, is the consensus among geneticists that Reich's assertion is correct and Wade's assertion is false?

 

[Andrew Mason]

There is a difference, not necessarily a total contradiction. Based on genetic analysis of European skeletons older than 5000 years, inhabitants of Europe before about 3000 BC had mixed genes from hunter-gatherers and Anatolian farmers. Both authors agree on that. Hunter-gatherers arrived in the upper paleolithic (around the end of the ice-age 15000-10000 years ago) and Anatolian Farmers arrived in the early neolithic period about 7,000-9,000 years ago from what is now Turkey.

According to Reich the genetic evidence is that most modern Europeans are descended from migrants from the steppe regions of eastern Europe and Asia beginning about 5,000 years ago. Reich estimates Europeans today have genes that are 75% Steppe and 25% hunter-gatherer / Anatolian farmer.

The issue seems to be the size of the Steppe migration and, possibly, the extent to which the Steppe arrivals mixed genes with the hunter-gatherer and Anatolian farmer locals. The genetic data that establishes the wave of Steppe migration beginning around 3000 BC was not available in 2006 when Wade published "Before the Dawn".

Wade uses limited DNA evidence done in the early 2000s - mainly of Y chromosomes and mitochondial DNA - to reach his conclusion that most modern Europeans can trace their ancestry back to the hunter-gatherers. But he was certainly aware there had been later migrations.

It should be noted that Wade is not a geneticist. He is a science writer who worked for the New York Times. Reich, who is a geneticist, used a lot more genetic evidence and more recent data, to reach his conclusions.

AM

 

[sevensages]

There is a difference, not necessarily a total contradiction.

I don't see how there is not a contradiction.

Based on genetic analysis of European skeletons older than 5000 years, inhabitants of Europe before about 3000 BC had mixed genes from hunter-gatherers and Anatolian farmers. Both authors agree on that. Hunter-gatherers arrived in the upper paleolithic (around the end of the ice-age 15000-10000 years ago) and Anatolian Farmers arrived in the early neolithic period about 7,000-9,000 years ago from what is now Turkey.

According to Reich the genetic evidence is that most modern Europeans are descended from migrants from the steppe regions of eastern Europe and Asia beginning about 5,000 years ago. Reich estimates Europeans today have genes that are 75% Steppe and 25% hunter-gatherer / Anatolian farmer.

The issue seems to be the size of the Steppe migration and, possibly, the extent to which the Steppe arrivals mixed genes with the hunter-gatherer and Anatolian farmer locals. The genetic data that establishes the wave of Steppe migration beginning around 3000 BC was not available in 2006 when Wade published "Before the Dawn".

Wade uses limited DNA evidence done in the early 2000s - mainly of Y chromosomes and mitochondial DNA - to reach his conclusion that most modern Europeans can trace their ancestry back to the hunter-gatherers. But he was certainly aware there had been later migrations.

I think that you are aware of the fact that there is not a modern European on the face of the Earth today that can trace all of their ancestry back to the hunter-gatherers. Don't you mean the following?: "Wade uses limited DNA evidence done in the early 2000s - mainly of Y chromosomes and mitochondrial DNA - to reach his conclusion that modern Europeans can trace MOST of their ancestry back to the hunter-gatherers."

It should be noted that Wade is not a geneticist. He is a science writer who worked for the New York Times. Reich, who is a geneticist, used a lot more genetic evidence and more recent data, to reach his conclusions.

AM

Let's review again what Wade wrote. Wade wrote the following: "The Richards team's reconstruction of the population history of Europe brought to light an unexpected fact: That most Europeans are descended from the first settlers who arrived during the Upper Paleolithic era. Only a minority arrived during the Neolithic age."

In the interests of brevity, henceforth, I am going to call people of European descent white people in this post because all people of European descent are white, and all white people are of European descent.

So Wade's statement basically says the following: "Most white people are descended from the first settlers who arrived during the Upper Paleolithic era. Only a minority arrived during the Neolithic age." ----

I don't think that Wade quote can be taken literally because if Wade's quote is taken literally, it is extremely obvious that it is false. Any white person is descended from literally millions of people five thousand years ago. Wade statement makes it sound like most white people are descended STRICTLY from the first settlers who arrived during the Upper Paleolithic era without being descended from any settlers who arrived during the Neolithic age. There is not even one white person on the face of the Earth who is descended strictly from the first settlers who arrived during the Upper Paleolithic era without being descended from any settlers who arrived during the Neolithic age. ALL white people on Earth are descended from BOTH settlers who arrived in the Upper Paleolithic era and from settlers who arrived during the Neolithic age.

I interpret Wade's statement as meaning the following: "Most white people are PRIMARILY descended from the first settlers who arrived during the Upper Paleolithic era. Only a minority of the ancestors of white people arrived in Europe during the Neolithic age." ------Do you agree with my interpretation of Wade's statement?

Reich's statement is that "the extraordinary fact that emerges from ancient DNA is that just five thousand years ago, the people who are now the primary ancestors of all extant northern Europeans had not arrived."

I don't see how the two statements don't totally contradict each other unless one wants to argue that they don't contradict each other because Wade was writing about all people of European descent while Reich was writing ONLY about people of NORTHERN European descent.

If the people who are now the primary ancestors of all white people had not yet arrived in Europe five thousand years ago, then it cannot be true that most of the primary ancestors of all white people arrived during the Upper Paleolithic era about 15,000-10,000 years ago. I cannot figure out why you don't think that there is a contradiction between the two statements.

Can you or someone else reconcile these two statements for me?

P.S. I think that Wade's statement is kind of sloppy writing. I think that Reich's statement is a lot more precise writing.