Does GR contradict Mach's principle?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between General Relativity (GR) and Mach's principle, exploring whether GR contradicts Mach's principle or if it simply does not incorporate it without modifications. The scope includes theoretical considerations, interpretations of gravity theories, and the implications of various models, particularly Brans-Dicke gravity.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that GR is not inherently inconsistent with Mach's principle, as Brans-Dicke gravity, which is seen as a modification of GR, can accommodate Mach's principle under certain conditions.
  • Others contend that Brans-Dicke gravity becomes more Machian as the value of the parameter \(\omega\) decreases, suggesting that for large \(\omega\), Brans-Dicke is inconsistent with Mach's principle.
  • A participant questions the assertion that GR admits non-Machian solutions, emphasizing that the entire theory of GR operates independently of distant mass distributions, as evidenced by experiments involving gyroscopes in rotating laboratories.
  • There is a discussion about the lack of additional postulates in GR since its inception, with some participants challenging the idea that Mach's principle could be integrated into GR without altering its foundational equations.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the validity of Mach's principle, suggesting that current evidence indicates a non-Machian universe, particularly in the context of Brans-Dicke gravity.
  • The interpretation of Mach's principle varies, with references to both weak and strong formulations, leading to further questions about how these definitions impact the relationship with GR.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether GR contradicts Mach's principle. Multiple competing views are presented, particularly regarding the implications of Brans-Dicke gravity and the interpretations of Mach's principle.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion involves complex technical issues, including the dependence on the parameter \(\omega\) in Brans-Dicke gravity and the varying interpretations of Mach's principle. The implications of different cosmological solutions and their compatibility with GR remain unresolved.

  • #31
Jonathan Scott said:
...This illustrates that the experimental proof that the G value used in GR is a constant for purposes of solar system experiments does not on its own rule out Machian theories which involve a value of G that varies with location.
Can it be taken here that Gs is specifically applied to both active gravitational mass ma and passive mass mp, and that the latter follows from applying WEP - ie mp = mi. So there is a chain of logic leading from Mach's principle that originally dealt only with inertia hence inertial mass mi, and the other two are 'derived' from that?
 
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  • #32
Q-reeus said:
Can it be taken here that Gs is specifically applied to both active gravitational mass ma and passive mass mp, and that the latter follows from applying WEP - ie mp = mi. So there is a chain of logic leading from Mach's principle that originally dealt only with inertia hence inertial mass mi, and the other two are 'derived' from that?

Sorry, I can't give you a good answer at the moment. I often have difficulty handling these sort of questions nowadays, because once you start talking about ideas which are not part of GR, it's tricky to remember exactly what holds and what doesn't, and it's years since I had time to really think about this area. Also, I've just had Sunday lunch.

I certainly generally assume active and passive mass are the same, and I seem to remember that in Sciama's type of Machian approach, all masses and distances are relative anyway; if you double all mass values in the universe, or all distances, nothing different happens.
 
  • #33
Jonathan Scott said:
...Also, I've just had Sunday lunch...
Can't argue with that - hope it was nice.
...I certainly generally assume active and passive mass are the same, and I seem to remember that in Sciama's type of Machian approach, all masses and distances are relative anyway; if you double all mass values in the universe, or all distances, nothing different happens.
Presumably this is relative to some given time-like hyperslice. Not at all sure but had thought Hubble redshift could be interpreted as Mach's principle operating across different eras - ie back then with matter being crowded together, inertia was much greater wrt 'now', hence 'time/light-frequency much slower'. I realize 'expanding space' is the usual interpretation, but just like with ordinary gravitational redshift there can be alternate pov's ('tiring' light or slower clocks in that case).
 

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