Does Gravitational Lensing Cause Red Shift in Light?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around whether gravitational lensing causes redshift in light as it passes near massive objects, such as galaxies or clusters. Participants explore the implications of this phenomenon on measurements of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) and distant redshifted galaxies, considering both theoretical and observational aspects.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions if light is redshifted during lensing and its effects on CMBR and distant galaxies, suggesting that some light may be redshifted more than others, leading to frequency dispersion.
  • Another participant presents a thought experiment involving a laser beam and a beach ball, arguing that the added path length due to lensing would not cause significant redshift and that CMB measurements likely ignore lensing effects.
  • Several participants discuss the bending of light around massive objects, with some suggesting that while it may change direction, it does not impact wavelength significantly, although it could affect travel time and distance.
  • One participant references the Sachs-Wolfe effect, explaining that photons passing through a massive extended body experience a slight reduction in redshift upon exiting, due to changes in gravitational potential wells.
  • Another participant reiterates the idea that light experiences blueshift when approaching a massive body and redshift when departing, leading to a net effect of zero, except in special cases like the Sachs-Wolfe effect.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the impact of gravitational lensing on redshift, with some arguing it has negligible effects while others suggest specific scenarios where it may have measurable consequences. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of gravitational lensing and its potential effects on light, but there is uncertainty regarding the significance of these effects on measurements and observations.

Tanelorn
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Does light get red shifted during lensing, when it passes by an object with great mass such as a galaxy or cluster?

If so then what are the effects on measurements of the CMBR and most distant red shifted galaxies?

If true then presumably some light would be red shifted more than others resulting in frequency dispersion?
 
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Think about shining a laser horizontally along a road from point A to point B, one mile apart and each one foot off the ground. Now put a 2 foot diameter beach ball in the middle of the path and require that the light beam go from point A to a point just above the beach ball and then on to point B. I don't think the added length of the path would cause any significant red shifting.

I think the CMB measurements ignore any lensing, and since lensing really is only used to show the effects of GR, it's irrelevant to measurements of distant galaxies (assuming I'm right about the added red shift being insignificant).

All of this is just what I hope is an educated guess. I haven't done any math on this and if I'm off, I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will jump in and let us know.
 
What if the light bends around an object and significantly changes direction?
 
Tanelorn said:
What if the light bends around an object and significantly changes direction?
That might make very slightly more difference, but that is not what happens with galactic lensing.
 
Tanelorn said:
What if the light bends around an object and significantly changes direction?
Doesn't really matter. Lensing just changes the direction of light beams. It doesn't impact their wavelength. It does change light travel time and distance, which may have some impact on the redshift, but it's a very minor impact. I doubt it is measurable.
 
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Light gets blueshifted as it approaches a massive body then redshifted by the same amount as it departs. The net effect is zero - re: http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/ab...hen-it-is-gravitationally-lensed-intermediate. There is, however, a special case called the Sachs-Wolfe effect that occurs when photons pass through a massive extended body. Those photons are slightly less redshifted when they exit such a region.
 
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Chronos said:
Light gets blueshifted as it approaches a massive body then redshifted by the same amount as it departs. The net effect is zero - re: http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/ab...hen-it-is-gravitationally-lensed-intermediate. There is, however, a special case called the Sachs-Wolfe effect that occurs when photons pass through a massive extended body. Those photons are slightly less redshifted when they exit such a region.
Just to expand upon the Sachs-Wolfe effect, this occurs as a result of the gravitational potential well changing over the time the photon passes through it. Obviously this will only be a significant effect for extremely large systems, where the dominant cause of changing gravitational potential wells is dark energy, which causes the gravitational potential of large systems to decay slowly over time.
 
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