Does Knowing History Shape Our Understanding of the Present?

[Sophia]

It's strange how Wolram and I are thinking about similar things at the same time :-)
I wanted to ask if you are interested in history and how much do you know about it? Do you think knowing history can help us understand what is happening now? Is it important to know it or is it just a hobby like reading fantasy or detective novels?
I've heard that history is considered an important subject in the US and that Americans know much about their history.

 

[Hornbein]

It's strange how Wolram and I are thinking about similar things at the same time :-)
I wanted to ask if you are interested in history and how much do you know about it? Do you think knowing history can help us understand what is happening now? Is it important to know it or is it just a hobby like reading fantasy or detective novels?

I spend much more effort on reading history than current events. Reporting of current events is partisan. It is also based on partial information and deliberate misinformation. With history the participants are dead and the issues no longer of advantage to anyone so there is hope of finding the truth. That being said, history as taught in high schools is also partisan and larded with deliberate misinformation. The true goal is not to inform the student, the goal is to convince said student to support the established order. To get the real story one must confine one's studies to reports based on primary sources. Even then there is bias, so one is well advised to confine one's attention to said primary sources and disregard the author's "analysis."

BUT if one goes to all that trouble of reading dozens of thick tomes, then one may begin to recognize certain patterns. When those patterns recur in contemporary life, one may assume that the same things are going on, that the same sort of lying and other concealment is occurring, the same hidden moves are being made, and so forth. It is difficult to hide very big things completely.

I've heard that history is considered an important subject in the US and that Americans know much about their history.

I would say the opposite. There is so little interest in history that I have been able to buy thick scholarly works, created from primary sources at great effort, for fifty cents apiece.

 

[Sophia]

I spend much more effort on reading history than current events. Reporting of current events is partisan. It is also based on partial information and deliberate misinformation. With history the participants are dead and the issues no longer of advantage to anyone so there is hope of finding the truth. That being said, history as taught in high schools is also partisan and larded with deliberate misinformation. The true goal is not to inform the student, the goal is to convince said student to support the established order. To get the real story one must confine one's studies to reports based on primary sources. Even then there is bias, so one is well advised to confine one's attention to said primary sources and disregard the author's "analysis."

BUT if one goes to all that trouble of reading dozens of thick tomes, then one may begin to recognize certain patterns. When those patterns recur in contemporary life, one may assume that the same things are going on, that the same sort of lying and other concealment is occurring, the same hidden moves are being made, and so forth. It is difficult to hide very big things completely.
I would say the opposite. There is so little interest in history that I have been able to buy thick scholarly works, created from primary sources at great effort, for fifty cents apiece.

That's a very interesting post, Hornbein.
Where do you get the primary sources? I guess you don't go to archives, do you?
I hated History at school. It was too dull matching dates to events and learning dictionary definitions by heart.
I wanted to buy a history book but the one I wanted was accused of being written by an author with strong political interests. So I ordered another one with better reviews and expect it to arrive in Monday.
But as you say, it seems to me that a person who is not a professional can only hardly see if something in the textbook is true or if it was written to support one view that the establishment tries to prove.
So I was wondering where one can find the primary sources you are taking about. And if you can find them how can you read them if they are written in old and foreign languages.

 

[Kevin McHugh]

There is nothing new under the sun, and those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it. It is not so important to relate dates to events in history as it is to understand what lead up to that event what were the repercussions of that event. Human behavior being what it is hasn't changed since the first chemist made fire. If we understand history, we can use that knowledge to evaluate current affairs and to formulate strategies to address the issues. Otherwise we will make the same mistakes of the past.

 

[Kevin McHugh]

If you are truly interested in the history of the 20th century read Hope and Tragedy by Carroll Quigley. Quigley provides insight to historical events that have not been revealed previously. He had access to documents from Chatam House, the Royal Institute on International Affairs and many other institutions of world power brokering.

 

[Hornbein]

That's a very interesting post, Hornbein.
Where do you get the primary sources? I guess you don't go to archives, do you?
I hated History at school. It was too dull matching dates to events and learning dictionary definitions by heart.
I wanted to buy a history book but the one I wanted was accused of being written by an author with strong political interests. So I ordered another one with better reviews and expect it to arrive in Monday.
But as you say, it seems to me that a person who is not a professional can only hardly see if something in the textbook is true or if it was written to support one view that the establishment tries to prove.
So I was wondering where one can find the primary sources you are taking about. And if you can find them how can you read them if they are written in old and foreign languages.

I don't go direct to primary sources. That is what historians do. Instead I read books by historians that are packed with quotations from primary sources. Often what those quotations are telling you is the opposite of what the historian says.

Reading the news you'd be surprised how often those graphs fail to support or even refute the presenter's conclusions.

History as taught in school is dreadful. All the sex and passion has been drained out of it. The characters are like stuffed mannequins, symbols of this and that. Real history is fascinating. It's like a novel, but better. Reality is not constrained by plausibility. Anything can happen. I frequently post about history to my friends. They love it.

 

[Hornbein]

There is nothing new under the sun, and those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it.

Those who are aware of history are also doomed to repeat it, because those who shape events behave in the same ways.

 

[Hornbein]

If you are truly interested in the history of the 20th century read Hope and Tragedy by Carroll Quigley. Quigley provides insight to historical events that have not been revealed previously. He had access to documents from Chatam House, the Royal Institute on International Affairs and many other institutions of world power brokering.

Tragedy and Hope is available free of charge from a Quigley web site. 1300+ pages. It'll be a while.

 

[wolram]

I started to be interested in history when i was researching my village, it turns out that there was and upper Itching and a Lower Itching, the lower Itching
became depopulated in the 15 century due to enclosure, this is when land lords wanted to clear the land for agriculture, it was not due to the black death as many thought, the only remains of lower itching is a wall included into a building that was part of the church.

 

[Sophia]

Tragedy and Hope is available free of charge from a Quigley web site. 1300+ pages. It'll be a while.

But probably worthwhile :-)
I'm interested in other books as well, mainly about general European history if you know some. I'll read about the US too, but first I'd like to start from home :-)

 

[Hornbein]

But probably worthwhile :-)
I'm interested in other books as well, mainly about general European history if you know some. I'll read about the US too, but first I'd like to start from home :-)

I'd read the first volume of Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. The UK and US governments are based on those of Rome. Generations of UK schoolboys were required to read it, so it is one of the most influential books ever.

For more modern things there's Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: the Path to Power. It reads like a novel. Except better, of course.

More off-the-beaten-path is CG Jung's Memories, Dreams, Reflections. Very unorthodox: not even Jungians follow it.

 

[Hornbein]

But probably worthwhile :-)
I'm interested in other books as well, mainly about general European history if you know some. I'll read about the US too, but first I'd like to start from home :-)

Oh, there's the story of Joan of Arc. I think I got Mark Twain's version over the Internet for free. Incredible story, unacceptable to the scientific mind, but it happened.

 

[Psinter]

I find it is great to know, but I pay more attention to that of my place than history of elsewhere.

You don't mind if I put this picture here?

 

[James Holland]

Yes very much so
i like the 1800 and the dark ages (Norse/viking)

 

[James Holland]

I find it is great to know, but I pay more attention to that of my place than history of elsewhere.

You don't mind if I put this picture here?

history dose not repeat but it rhymes

 

[Kevin McHugh]

But probably worthwhile :-)
I'm interested in other books as well, mainly about general European history if you know some. I'll read about the US too, but first I'd like to start from home :-)

Quigley's book is mainly Europe, Russia, Caucuses, and Asia. Very little is written about US history in this tome.

 

[Hornbein]

Quigley's book is mainly Europe, Russia, Caucuses, and Asia. Very little is written about US history in this tome.

I'm up to page 271. Never before have I been exposed to such concentrated, distilled truth. Naturally it is considered toxic by the great majority of the human race. Unflattering to all factions, it has the support of no faction. No faction except one, which did more harm than good. It didn't help that a small portion was heavily publicized by the John Birch society to support their conspiracy theories, much to Quigley's dismay.

 

[Kevin McHugh]

Quigley is Saharan dry, but his research is impeccable. The behind the scenes look at historical world events is an eye opener. Wait until you get to the Arab-Latin axis. What insight!

On a side note, I'm surprised he wasn't assassinated.

 

[Sophia]

Sounds like a must-read! Will definitely get that book.
However I need to learn earlier history first. I'm at the 7-9th century central Europe now (which is quite interesting, didn't expect that. I will spend some time in this period). Want to see everything in chronological order.

 

[Hornbein]

Quigley is Saharan dry, but his research is impeccable. The behind the scenes look at historical world events is an eye opener. Wait until you get to the Arab-Latin axis. What insight!

On a side note, I'm surprised he wasn't assassinated.

I find it fast-paced, gripping, and massively entertaining. But I'm not a normal human being. Novels and porn bore the &^%# out of me.

I'm on page 303. I can't imagine what the remaining 1000 pages will contain.

Why should he be assassinated? His work was ignored, discredited by the John Birchers, then forgotten.

 

[1oldman2]

There is nothing new under the sun, and those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it. It is not so important to relate dates to events in history as it is to understand what lead up to that event what were the repercussions of that event. Human behavior being what it is hasn't changed since the first chemist made fire. If we understand history, we can use that knowledge to evaluate current affairs and to formulate strategies to address the issues. Otherwise we will make the same mistakes of the past.

I was going to jump right in with my thoughts on the OP's first post in this thread, then I came to your post here and you pretty well covered my thoughts on the matter. I'm all for minimizing redundancy so I'm giving you a great big "what he said" as I couldn't have said it better.
By the way in high school i was bored to death with history, however later I read History of the world by H.G. Wells. His approach to viewing history as a world wide subject as opposed to the narrow canned version I was exposed to in the US classrooms completely changed my thought on the subject. (love that book) while I believe his fiction is likely some of the best writing in that genre, I can't help but think his Historical works are his best.

 

[Astronuc]

I'm quite interested in history, and I have quite a collection of history books. I've enjoyed world history and geography since my early years.

I'm also intrigued by and curious about humanity and how we got to where we are. When PF had a History forum, I posted often there about books I've read.

I like to be informed about the past and our legacy, especially when some invoke the past regarding current events.

 

[1oldman2]

Sounds like a must-read! Will definitely get that book.
However I need to learn earlier history first. I'm at the 7-9th century central Europe now (which is quite interesting, didn't expect that. I will spend some time in this period). Want to see everything in chronological order.

For a quick synopsis of what you mention here I must recommend "History of the world" as mentioned in my previous post on this thread. Certainly dated as far as current history is concerned, you would find the brief "thumbnail" format in chronological order to be very useful at finding interesting periods of history. A couple notes worth noting, It's a two part book and must be read in order, and the example of a time line he uses at the end of book two,(the clock) vs. the traditional linear examples of time lines is incredibly good at putting things in perspective.
Long live H.G. Wells even if he's already dead.

 

[1oldman2]

I'm also intrigued by and curious about humanity and how we got to where we are. When PF had a History forum, I posted often there about books I've read.

Being somewhat new to PF I wasn't even aware there had been a history forum. I'm not one to suggest subjects and formats on a site like this but dang it, I would have been all over that particular forum and if it happens to be revived it would be a wonderful thing in my opinion.
By the way are you familiar with the clock vs. linear format used by Mr. Wells at the end of H.O.W. book two?
I can't think of a better format to look at historical time frames than that.

 

[Astronuc]

If you are truly interested in the history of the 20th century read Hope and Tragedy by Carroll Quigley. Quigley provides insight to historical events that have not been revealed previously. He had access to documents from Chatam House, the Royal Institute on International Affairs and many other institutions of world power brokering.

Quigley's book looks interesting. I'm curious about he organizes periods and his comments on expansion and conflict. Human history has been one of migration, expansion and conflict. Migration may occur in response to invasion or in response to changes in environment (or search for resources). Various regions have interesting cultural histories, and often cultures come into conflict.

Susan Wise Bauer has some interesting books on historical topics:

The History of the Ancient World: From the Earliest Accounts to the Fall of Rome
The History of the Medieval World: From the Conversion of Constantine to the First Crusade
http://www.susanwisebauer.com/books/

The Story of Western Science, From the Writings of Aristotle to the Big Bang Theory
http://books.wwnorton.com/books/detail.aspx?id=4294987136

I also enjoyed Peter Heather's The Fall of the Roman Empire: A New History of Rome and the Barbarians
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2005/dec/17/featuresreviews.guardianreview9
http://blog.oup.com/2007/07/rome_questions/

I have several books on European history and the 'barbarian' invasions.

I found Thomas Asbridge’s The Greatest Knight, the story of William Marshal a compelling history.

I've always been interested in non-fiction, i.e., history and science books, and only since I've raised my children, have I been more interested in fiction. However, I am still interested in history more than fiction.

 

[Kevin McHugh]

The powers that be typically don't like their dirty little secrets seeing the light of day. Quigley revealed a lot of dirty laundry. Manley Hall was another one that revealed Masonic secrets in his tome "The Secret Teachings of all Ages."

 

[Kevin McHugh]

I was going to jump right in with my thoughts on the OP's first post in this thread, then I came to your post here and you pretty well covered my thoughts on the matter. I'm all for minimizing redundancy so I'm giving you a great big "what he said" as I couldn't have said it better.
By the way in high school i was bored to death with history, however later I read History of the world by H.G. Wells. His approach to viewing history as a world wide subject as opposed to the narrow canned version I was exposed to in the US classrooms completely changed my thought on the subject. (love that book) while I believe his fiction is likely some of the best writing in that genre, I can't help but think his Historical works are his best.

Thank you, I'll take that as a compliment since most of the brains in here are way past my pay grade.

 

[1oldman2]

most of the brains in here are way past my pay grade.

Ditto.

 

[Sophia]

Yesterday I learned that old Slavs in 7-9th century kept slaves and were quite aggressive towards their enemies. They cut their right hands and castrated them so that no genials were left.
Those who could afford it had harems of concubines and bigamy was tolerated until the 12th century.

I consider this to be another example of the manipulation in textbooks. We only learned about slavery in ancient civilisations and during colonialism. We were never told that our culture did that, too or that our ancestors lead expansive wars and took territory and resources of others. Maybe it is taught at the university, but no teacher or textbook mentioned that at primary or high school. Instead, it was repeated several times each year that we are the "nation of doves" who never hurt anyone but all others have always been against us.

 

[James Holland]

every country tries to hide something from its history